@mattiemontgomery - Don’t Let Teenagers Train Your Kids w/ Mattie Montgomery

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode features Mattie Montgomery, aka @mattiemontgomery, former vocalist of renowned spirit-filled hardcore band “For Today” & current pastor of The Altar Fellowship.

Where you can find Mattie Montgomery:

https://www.instagram.com/mattiemontgomery/

https://twitter.com/ForTodayMattie

https://www.facebook.com/MattieMontgomery

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC174jVvfh93MnIGebKPIzZg

Welcome back to you, Mary Christian,for we are on a mission to see a Gospel Center at home made available for everychild in the foster care system. Today, it's just me and I'm so low, becauseJames is at home, taking care of his brand new born baby jj s. We are veryexcited about, and now James has become arm ideal demographic for the podcast,but we are excited for you to hear today's episode with many Montgomery.If you don't know him, I was Fan bowing out the whole time, because not only ishe the lead pastor of the altar fellowship, but he is the former leadsinger of the hardcore screaming ban. For today the interview was a mosh pit of a goodtime. We went into stories of his bands touring path, some involving a cartel,some involving a guy, almost dying, and then we also talked about encounterwith a satanic worshipper that was at one of their shows and that threw thepower of prayer and through Jesus's love, he was able to turn over his lifeto Christ. Do you have relationship with God? No would you like one? Yes, Ican't wait for you guys to hear it. We also talked about Biblical definitionof marriage and Maddie talks about the purpose behind its marriage and why weeven get married so it'd be interesting for you to compare and contrast howyou're living out your marriage to what Mattie talks about. We also went intothe importance behind naming your children. It's not supposed to be thatas and how significant a name can be for a child and made talks about theprocess of naming his three boys, some involving hearing from God and evenreceiving names through dreams. So I'm a excited for you guys to hear it.There's somebody here in this hold on to your prayer, be Gnus because we areyoung. Married rise did yeah Hollywood studios animalkingdom for a ride back to Hollywood studios for rise of the resistance back toanimal kingdom for dinner, and then we came home. They probably had you guysflag by the end of the day, they're, probably looking for these people, it'ssuspicious. They were suspiciously running through the park together. Ithink they're just here to exercise yes jogging. I think that I mean there'speople that do go to the parks and they just like run around and I'm like gosomewhere else yeah. What are you doing? A like you're making me feel bad, I'mover here eating a Dole whip in one hand, and I got my Mickey Bar on theother hand and you're jogging like right. Why are you sweating here? Yeah,you shouldn't be doing that so other than theme parks. One of my biggobsessions is fast food. Don't judge me, but I want to know on a Sunday you're leaving church. Youhave to go through a drive through. So you already know it's not pre blessed.Where are you going? If it's your call a drive through M Taco Bell: TACO BELLYEAH! Well, I think Taco Bell as far as national chains, yes, phenomenal, likeI've, never had an expensive Bougi restaurant. That is as good to me aslike a chicken case O de from talking about so goat's. What I'm talking in aBaha blast to wash it down with. You can't beat it, but but also in EastTennessee. There is a chain called pals. That's a burger spot. Okay, tell memore: It's just phenomenal they've got there's a an east, Tennessee sodacalled Doctor Enough. It's like mineral sprite, it's a it's a weirdsort of thing, and I was thinking doublet no, but it's like the home teamsoda. So you got to get it. They serve it at pals, and so you get a pals sauceburger with cheese. Sauce, Burger and they've got sauce yeah, it's saucy softparker with cheese or the big pal that has like tomatoes and onions andpickles and lettuce and stuff on it and pretty pretty good super good. Have youtried the new Taco Bell, TACO SANDWICH OR SANDWICH TACO? I don'tknow what it's sit: Ye, I'm trying t Y. AH, I haven't been recently: Okay, I'mmarried, so it's like once I become married, nomore fast food forbidden, no! Well it just Ooyoo, always with your spouse, soyou got to kind of check like. Are you good with this she's? Not so yeah Ifeel like tibicine express it is Panda Express, that's a good, that's a goodson, healthy or honestly great yeah. I feel, like I mean you guys, have a tshirt. Actually that was a Taco Bell for today. Shirt forgot about that. wasthat, like, like I mean I'm sure in the earlierdays of four today, when you guys are going around touring, I'm sure it was alot of fast food. Was it just kind of like that was our favorite one. Theyactually endorsed us for for a couple tours they would just you're kidding. Idon't know how that happened. They...

...might have seen the shirt or somethingI don't know, but they would just send us stacks of gift cards like thousands of dollars worth of talkabout gift cards which was life changing for us. So wait a lot of Tacobell and what did you have to do in return? Just Etta Bell? They didn't require youto make that shirt. They didn't require you to get on a stage and scream talkup. I would have I got to talk about that to on my neck, like I loved it, when all when all we wereever eating was fast. Food Dacca Ball was like closest. We got to heaven, youknow: Yeah, okay, besides fast food, help us to understand what was it likein the beginning days of four today, when you guys are just getting started,you're going on the road I mean, I'm sure you're not riding around a BougiCharter bus and I'm sure you don't have like a whole team. That's like settingup your gear, and I I mean how was it in the beginning when you guys werejust getting started and you put this whole thing together, yeah we just wehad a purple family van. You know a seven seater family van withsix guys in it, Oh wow and yeah, and that's how we you know live so. Basically the day wasyou, you know start at seven. Six Am and you drive six orseven hours to wherever the next show is, and then you get there at like. Youknow one or two in the afternoon and then you load gear in and then you havea couple hour break between the time you load gear in and sound check to.You know, Walk to a restaurant or take a nap or do whatever you want to do forthat span of time, and then you come back and play the show at I don't knoweight nine ten PM and then get in the van and now in the early days wecouldn't afford hotel. So we would at the show it was like. Please let us sleep onyour floor from the stage. You would say that there would be times I wouldsay from the stage or we would at the merch table Wow, and you know, we'venever been to the city before we don't have money for a hotel. Can we pleasesleep on your floor? We met some amazing people. Doing that you knowtheir parents would make us spaghetti or something and we'd you know, lay out. They lay a littlepallets on the floor or something for us. I mean. We've met a lot of trashypeople, probably doing that to sketching peoplewho make bad decisions like letting band guys sleep on the floor, you knowM, and so we we would show up there at probably one or two in themorning after the show had ended and who'd sleep for five or six hours onsomebody's floor, and then we get up and load dollar gear into the van anddrive for six hours to the next show. Do it all over again, when you say sketchy, was there ever atime where you were like this is so bad? We need to like leave like as soon asthey aren't looking at us. We need to make a break. There were times the whenI felt that way. There was the Lord was leading you, but not the band yeah.There were a couple times. There was one when my right after I got marriedto my wife. We walked into this House that had said wecould stay there and as soon as you walk in you just get hit with like thiswall of pet smell and there's just pet hair and like cat turds on the floorand we walked in and then just immediately turned around and walkedback out to the van and we were like we'll sleep, we'll sleep in the bad andthe rest, but the rest of the guys can be there to socialize and be cool, andeverything is good, they're. Actually, the night that I met my wife. One ofthe reasons that we were talking was she she had offered for us to stay inher dad's basement. He had a finished basement. We could stay in m. You knowplush carpets to sleep on. It would have been a nice a nice spot, but wealready had a place that night. So she gave me your number and said: Hey ifyou guys ever need a place to stay. Just you know in Birmingham, let meknow, and so so that night we stayed at one of the wildest places we have everstayed. They didn't have a driveway that wecould drive our van and trailer down, so we had to park way out by the roadand then this guy, the dad of these girls from the show that had invited usto stay, came out with this truck loaded us all in the back of his pickup and sort of drove us through the this path. In the woods to get back tohis house, we get back to the house and there's multiple confederate flagswaving outside at this time, I'm half black and I'm half black andhalf white, and at this time I had long dreads. I looked extra black and- and Ithought man this guy- this guy is not going to like me at all and I get intothe House and there are framed photographs of actual slaves on thewall. There's people in chains working...

...in cotton fields and- and I think thisis not going to go well and now I will say this: Everyone in that house wassuper nice to me and to all the other guys in the band they weren't rude inany way. I'm not sure we didn't, I didn't bring up the hey. Are you guysracist conversation? I figured I was. I was in their house, so we're probably past that that point.You know the point of deciding whether I was going to like these people or not.You know we're here, but at one point he pulled out an oozy and was showingus his gun. He had a rattle, a rattlesnake in a jar that he had caughtthe baby rattlesnake. It was an adventure and they orderedhis Papa John's pizza. So it was a good diet, but I was texting candace. I justmet her a few hours earlier and I was like we're definitely going to want tostay at your house next time. This place is out of control, so that was atrip. We've stated some wild places for sure I managed to survive that onethough, oh my goodness, I like, I was getting nervous just as you were goingthrough this story. You know it's like when you watch a TV show, and you knowlike if the main character is getting into trouble and you're like nothing,can happen in the main character like they've got to get out of this somehow,but the show makes you believe you know. Oh my goodness, something's going tohappen like I was literally like did Mattie survive this story, and I'm likehe's here it in front of me. I right this is the prequel sum in any otherinteresting stories from going around a house to house. I know one that you inyour book, scary God that you talked about, was very interesting and itwasn't necessarily someone's house. I think that they put you up in maybetheir church building yeah. So there was a church that had a trailer inVirginia beach that had a like a sort of a double wide trailerparked on there in the parking lot of their their church building, and thattrailer was open. Twenty four seven, four people come praying and half ofthe trailer. Was this prayer room and they had a you know a stereo and abunch, a bunch of books of CDs. Remember CDs, Yeah! I do. I know I lookye in in the distance, the distant past. I had no remember cassettes. Oh mygoodness, yeah and you know candles delight, and you know that I thinkthere was a CHOC board that people could write, pray requests on thingslike that, then the other half of the room was just a lounge with couches andthings like that in the pastor of this church had been at our concert thatnight and he said well, you can come and sleep in the lounge of the theprayer room, and so we thought great. That soundsawesome. You know, let's, let's do it and I you know at that point we were touring. We wereplaying three hundred shows a year, so we were on tour all the time, wow andand so to have the opportunity to be in a prayer room or at a church was areally rare thing that I really cherished. So we got to the prayer room that night and I spent probably an hourafter the other guys had gone to bed in the prayer room. Just you know,worshiping and praying, and thank you God for that Church and for just theopportunity to even be in a place like that. If I felt really special andeventually I went in the other room and got into my sleeping bag and fellasleep, but it probably I don't know three in the morning Iwoke up to the sound of this music that was comingfrom the other room it was, it was actually, it was a songcalled people get ready by Misty Edwards, which, if you've ever heard itis the scariest worship Song, that's the best. I love it coming on ahard core singing yeah. Well, you know it's just not it's not Chris Tomlin,you know who I love. It's just a different, it's a different thingaltogether for sure, and so the song it's pretty intense. It's you know it'sin a minor key and there's lots of like sort of low rumbling, stuff and and over. This is the sound of someoneclapping and like shouting to the Lord, and so I'm sort of startled, awake andand and as I there's the fog of sleep lifts off my mind, I realize you know I'm hearing a woman deep in prayer and she's praying adifferent way than I have ever heard. Anybody pray before you know prayer forme at this point in my life was sort of like. Let me go through my check listof needs to the Lord and Jesus name, a man and then just move on, but she's.You know this is what to put it in Bible terms would be considered liketravail I mean she's she's, groaning and she's, crying out to the Lord forthe salvation of her children, she's crying out to the Lord that he wouldprotect and bless her church she's, crying out to the Lord for Revival tocome to her city and to the nation, and I lay there for probably a half an hour, just recognizing that what I washearing was sacred. It felt, like you know, like this deeply intimate andperson Al and vulnerable conversation...

...between a mother and and her God, and you know it didn't, feel it didn't feel casual at all. It was.It was a holy moment. You know it sort of it felt like if you've ever stood on a stage during sound check, and you can hear the lowbase, maybe in the subwater s under the stage and the whole stage shakes youcould feel it in your chest. You know if you're standing on the stage you canfeel it in your feet and up your legs. It felt like there was just this sortof gravity, this electricity in the air that that were so holy that I felt like.If I would you know if I would have moved or if Iwould have disrupted or interrupted this moment, she was having in some waythat yeah. I guess I don't know what wouldhave happened, you know, but it felt it felt it felt too holy to mess up, andso I just sort of laid there still- and you know just breathing shallow breathsto make sure that I didn't interrupt this holy thing. The God was doing inthe next room, and you know I actually say in the book and scary God that Ifeel like that was maybe one of the first times I encountered the fear ofthe Lord, like I had never known a holiness that made me afraid before andI think you know we build church to make people comfortable and to beinviting and accommodating to people. But the truth is that you know all the bibles ribble withstories of people who come into the presence of God and they don't sort ofskip casually into God's presence. They fall on their face as dead as John PutsIt. You know, Isaiah falls down and he begins screaming. Woe is me, I'm a I'mundone for I'm a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of UncleanLips and my eyes have seen the Lord, the King of glory, and so there's there's this sort of consistent response to to thefully revealed holiness of God. That is fear. I mean terror. It's not just allor respect to, like many people have taught about fear, it's actual anactual sense of being horrified afraid for your own life. You know questioningwhether or not you're even going to survive this because of the intensityof God's holiness, and you know I guess I can't equate thatmoment to the fully revealed glory and Majesty of God, but I can say that that was the first timein my life I experienced something so holy. It made me afraid, but I thinkthat's sometimes a right response. Man Yeahwell, first off. I love that you're, literally laying asleep and you're theone. That's worried that you're going to bother her when and she's, probablylike jamming out over here. Probably I'm guessing not aware that you guysare asleep yeah in the room in Er in the next room yeah, but it was prettyinto so it's like, because, typically, you would think somebody who's asleepis not being worried about the other person, but the other person worriedabout bothering the person asleep anyways, but it's so cool to thinkabout the fact that God had like a divine intervention like a set time andplace for you in that moment that as you're going around touring and you'reliterally like have no idea where we're going to sleep tonight and God's likewhy. I know exactly where you're going to be- and I know exactly who's goingto be there and then that completely changes how you think about prayer andI'm guessing that that probably had you thinking for days and weeks andprobably radically shifted everything that you'd ever been taught andeverything that you I mean. If I wrote about it in a book in the first chapterof a book ten years later, yeah so yeah, it made a huge impression on my lifeand and yeah. I think God's really. SMART. Oh Way, smarter than me for your goingwith a theme of being in the right place of the righttime, on the reverse side of that you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I know you tolda story about when you're in Montana, oh yeah, it was the wrong place at the wrongtime, yeah yeah, what what happened in Montana set the story up. I know whenyou told Ashley and I it might have been Wyoming. I get those two statesconfused. It's they're similar. It was a frontier. It was a desolate land yeah.No, it was the opposite of Orlando Right. We were on tour and we had just played a show, probably in Shyanne Wyoming greatbarbecue there, it's a great it's a great beautiful place and yeah, and youknow we stayed at some random house with some random guys. We had the dayoff the next day, so we were kind of just hanging out killing time and we said so. What is there to doaround here and they said well, there's a there's, a waterfall near by with somecliffs on the side that you can climb cool experience, and we said: Let's godo that so we drive out there on the way where we get kind of lost. So westop and flag down this passing car and...

...we ask this guy for directions. Heknows right where it's at. He says you just go up half a mile s there on yourleft and we get there and we're climbing upthese. These rock faces on either side of the waterfall and having thisawesome moment, are we talking really steep or are we talking like a gradualslope, they're pretty steep, but they've got a lot of big rocks stickingout. So it's not it's not super treacherous. You know, okay, but it'snot like tiny little crimps. They go yeah we're, not expert rock climbers.You know we're just hard core kids, guys that don't have a mom around totell us how stupid this is so so we're climbing up- and you know we get up-probably I don't know sixty seventy. Eighty feet and some of the some of theother guys in the band and some of the guys that we were with whose House WeedDay that started picking up, rocks off the side of the cliff and like throwingthem down to see him break through the trees and kind of explode on the on theground. It's like the hardcore version of when you're at a water park,spitting off of the top of the ride. Okay, so you're just launching boulders,right, yeah and there's nobody there I mean you know when we pulled in therewere no cars or anything and and so they they pick up one of the guys, notone of the guys in the band one of the guys we were with picks up a rock,probably the size of a football, pretty big rock, and he throws it down and a few seconds later later, we hearit break through the trees. And then we hear somebody down below startscreaming at the top of their lung and Gosh, and we think oh no, we killedthe guy. We thought one of the other guys said I could have swore. He saidyou killed my daughter, but he I'm not entirely sure what hesaid, but it was probably something like you hit my arm, because this rockwas sort of rolling down the side of this cliff it bounces out and is comingstraight for this guy's face, and he sees it at the last second and managesto get his arm up, and you know I wish there's a picture of it. Somewhere he'sgot a gash from his elbow down to his wrist. That is so deep. You can see the through the muscle. You can see thetendons and the fat in his arm. It is just beyond Narleyow. It was theguy we had asked for directions. He he just thought you guys seemed cool and Iwanted to come hang out with you. I didn't have anything else going on, sohe came back to just hanging with us and show us around and- and we hit himwith a giant rock instead, so we one of our guys ended up driving him to thehospital, so he could get stitches and get put back together. He, the prognosis, was good that he wasgoing to be fine, but yeah. We felt pretty stupid for a whileokay, so I didn't throw the rock for for the record for the regard and itwasn't anybody in the big wasn't any of the guys just some random guy yet wasdefinitely not a part of four today right. So in that moment, when you hithim- and you hear a scream like you're far enough away to where you can inthat moment, decide we can run like no one has to know who we were or you goand check on him like what was that split? Second decision, like of we, could have just killed a man yeah.Well, if I can be totally honest, I was a lot younger than my first response was that God I didn'tthrow that rock somebody is in a lot of trouble right now. One of these idiots is going to have toanswer for this. You know no, but I think we all started we allyou know. Once we got back to the initial shock, we all started climbingdown to just. I don't think we really considered the possibility of trying toescape. We just had to get down quick and see what had happened and see. If there is anything we could doto help yeah. I bet that guy has never given directions to anyone else. I'msure he wears a helmet when he's hiking out there now yeah he's just like. Oh,you need something fun to do. Go play chess, that's right, yeah, we'reactually known for our UNO playing skills. Here you know he has to dullthe edges of the card, so no one like cuts him open as right. Yeah. Now oneof the other stories you talked about was when your equipment got stolen, Ohyeah, yeah. Can you tell us about that? It wasn't that guy was it. He didn'tcome back for revenge. I don't know yeah I could have been. This is in SanAntonio Texas. He went to great late if he did ma but yeah. We had just playeda show in San Antonio and we were going to play Houston. The next day we wentto a hotel there in San Antonio and I actually stayed with a friend thatnight. The next morning I got a call. I was onmy way back to the hotel to meet the guys drive over to Houston. I got acall from one of the guys had said Hey. Where did you park the van now? At this point we had grown quite alot and we were in a bigger fifteen passenger van, and I had a big. I don'tknow twenty foot trailer and probably I...

...don't know two hundred or two hundredand fifty zero worth of gear between you know light light gear. In a lightboard. We brought our own soundboard. You know, merch that we were going tosell guitars. I mean lots of guitars drum,set everything and I'm curious how many guitars do youbring just in case you like slam? One down is that why there's back ups, they justhave the guys had songs and in multiple different tunings catch, and so theywould like. I think they would each. I think each verguier players had fourguitars on to her, Oh wow, to be able to switch back and forth, and then ourtech would tune them. You know, while we are playing one, he would tuneanother, but okay, we did, we didn't have any smash.Guitars though I wish we could have done that if we got a little bigger,maybe we would have not even like the finale, like the last show that youguys did you just like arcione slammed it down ride it all on fire. We. So he calls me in the morning and hesays: Hey: Did you move the van where's, the van Ad, and I said I know I didn't take it and, and so they're sort of walking allaround the parking lot. Thinking somebody, you know, one of the guyscame out and moved it and forgot where, where he put it or is somebody'spranking us or something, and after about half an hour of searching, itbecomes evident that none of us know where the van is and it's gone. So they call the police and the police come out and file a reportand our van has been stolen along with our trailer, along with ourgear and our livelihood. I mean they took, you know our guitarpicks and drum sticks. They took our suitcases with our tooth brushes inthem like they took every freshets, not, I know the too. They took everythingtotal value of two hundred and fifty thousand plus pretty serious, two or and fiftythousand dollars yeah gone gone, and so there was some speculation actuallythat the the night manager at the hotel had called somebody to say that there was aband here that probably had a lot of money parked in the parking lot. Ican't say whether that's true or not, but we were only inside. The van was only on supervised for liketwo hours, two or three hours, so it was pretty pretty quick, but so we are faced with the decision. Thenext day. Do we call the tour off? We don't have any gear. Do we ask theother bands if we can borrow gear? Do We delay the next couple shows and tryto buy new stuff? What do we do so? What we come up with is we aregoing to rent a couple cars we're going to just drive over to Houston and wingit that night we were headlining the House of Blues in Houston, a couplethousand tickets sold. It was going to be this massive headlining show for us,the biggest one we'd ever played, and so we drive over to Houston and thestaff in house abut blues is amazing. They heard what happened and they likedonated a bunch of house of blue shirts to us, so that we'd have close to where I think they gave us some deter andtooth brushes to, because Lord knows we needed it, but you know we just had this amazing peaceabout it. All like that, it was unjust, but God is good and you know if wedon't ever get any of our stuff back, like God is on the throne and it's okay.You know our our joy isn't tied to our gear and whether we have the gear or notlike we do have a good king who's seated on the thronelike everything's, okay, so we're driving over there to Houston and we get we get to thevenue and it's hilarious because we're playing with a few other bands that are great bands and they've allgot cool light shows, and you know big backdrop, banners and things, and thenthe headliner comes up. We don't even have our own gear, let alone our light,show or our backdrop, our big banner behind us or anything like that, and sowe just sort of go out and play. I don't know ten songs or something and we play it all. On borrowed gear. Wehad to borrow one of the other bands drum sets and sticks. The guys werelike we don't have any guitar picks. Could we use some of those from theother musicians on the tour and they were all kind enough to help us anddoes the gas around you know on the set say says I yes, I say some other fans ayeah. All of it is just as weird as possible sure the audience is soconfused right. Well then, we explained to him what happened it was. It was acool thing like we didn't even have any merge to sell to try to make this moneyback. So we couldn't say: Hey our stuff got stolen, go by a shirt to likesupport us, and so that show the was one of the coolest shows, because thecrowd was so supportive and encouraging...

...people are like crowd surfing to thefront and just laying wads of cash on the stage just like we just want tohelp you guys and support you. We believe in you and thank for your bandwas really sweet and that night, I think we postedsomething on on Facebook, saying like if you have any information about whereour gear could have gone like just let us know, email our managers, so ourmanager gets a message from for some kid that says: Hey you know. Is thereany kind of reward? If I know information about where your stuff wentand a I think I'll manage, you responds with something like the reward. Is Youdon't go to jail to like to tell me what you do and, and so he explains that he's a fanof the band and he had been at our show the night before in San Antonio. Hewoke up the next morning to seeing his dad and his uncle loading a bunch ofgear out of a trailer that said for to day on it into a shed on their property. This kid'sDad Dad and uncle yes, and so is like my favorite band right or my my familyyeah, so he call he tells which is crazy wild. So we get so. What we do is we send ourtour manager back or to a manager and one of our Rodis back to San Antonio to just go figure. Itout go meet with the police, get to get a plan together. We've got to keepgoing West on this tour. So so we were heading headed out. I thinkwe had shows later in. Like I don't know, El Paso Phoenix Vegas La. I think it was something likethat, and so so we're just driving going outplaying, shows with no gear and just live in our best lives, but they go so they go back to San Antonio. They get the address from this kid andthey give it to the police. They give it to the detective in charge of ourcase, and he says: Okay, you know, we know thisneighborhood. Just you know you guys can go nearthere don't go to the house. Just trust us on this. Don't go to the House we'regoing to get there as soon as we can so my guys go over and they park probablytwo hundred and fifty yards away from the house where they can see it andthey're just keeping an eye on it. And after a few minutes they look aroundand they begin to see people in this neighborhood in San Antonio, prettyrough neighborhood. They start coming out of their houses and just looking atthis rental car that they're in it's like a Prius, you know not the sort ofcar that you would see in a in a rough neighborhood in San Antonio,so so they're out looking at at thisrental car and then and then they sort of go back in their house. And thenpeople will come out there on the phone or something a after a few minutes.They see the the dad, the guy that stole our stuff. He walks out of thehouse and he's just sort of messed around with his car a little bit andhe's kind of walking around in the front yard, and then he opened thetrunk of his car and he like bends over into the trump and he's just kind ofmessed around and then suddenly he whips around he's got binoculars in hishands. He whips around and looks directly into the car. Okay, and thenit's just like my guys are terrifiedly and see back yeah right, like they'relike Oh gosh. What do we do so they're just like we got to get out of here, so they start driving just driving, just don't stop so thatthey don't know where we're going to be next they're, just driving aimlessly.Now that is a preis just doing don't. I know- and I D and and so this guy, Iguess, while they're driving around he gets in his car and takes off, and then you know ten minutes later so they'redriving by the road that the house was on and they see a helicopter flyoverhead and they see a bunch of black suvs like flying through theneighborhood and they go over near the House and they see they've all come tothe House that San Antonio Swat has showed up in our rating this house. Somy guys, they pull up to the House and the SWAT team has gone in and clearedit the guy he ran away, but they actually ended up catching up with himlater that day, and that was his third strike. He's been in prison twice sohe's in jail for life. Now it turns out that he was a member of like a drug andweapon smuggling cartel that had been bringing drugs and weapons across thesouthern border for years and they've been trying to figure out a way to getinto this guy's house and to break into this neighborhood because it wasn'tjust him. It was others around him, but they just couldn't get a justifiablereason to get a warrant until he stole our stuff, and so they got the warrantand they read the House and they find I mean, there's bricks of cocaine sittingon thet kitchen table. There are you...

...know, machine guns and shot guns likelaid against the corners of it, laid in the corners of these rooms. There'skids living in the house too, and and in the middle of all, this is our stuff.It's like our guys, walk in and there's like there's, Maddie sleeping back andthere's you know, there's Ryan's laptop and, like all of our stuff had justbeen in this house, and so the SWAT team comes out to our guys and they sayhe just come in and take whatever's yours and so the guys sort of walkyeah's my break of Coke right yeah. It's like they just sort of walk inlike all right. Like sorry, kids that blanket your dad got, you like he stolethat we got. We have to take that back, and so they sort of gather up all thestuff and in the shed out back where a lot of our guitars are drums. Theentire drum set a bunch of our stuff, the vain and trailer were still gone. Ithink we ended up getting the van finding the van abandoned like somewhere miles and miles away a coupleweeks later or something, but it was just and then I think weactually also the guitars that we didn't get back. We found a friend ofours saw them in a pawn shop like I don't know months later and was like, Ithink, that's I think that's the four today guys guitars, so we were able tomatch up the serial numbers with numbers that we had from Gibson, and so did you just say: Hey, actually that'smy guitar yeah it will they color holding it for us right. You call theycalled the pawn shop and I think, there's a protocol for that, and so the the police were able to get a backforce. But it's just a pretty insane scenario. All the way around and there's a helicopter involved, theyended up like pulling the Lynch pin this guy out of this international drugand weapon smuggling cartel and- and probably the best part of my favoritepart of the whole story is that his son, who turned him in for this, had heard me preach the Gospel at theshow and San Antonio the night before, and one of our guys are one of our twoR managers that was there getting the stuff back. He sort ofpulled them aside and talk to him about what a big deal. It was how grateful wewere that he would help us get these things back and, and they sat on thesteps of that House with Swat guys running all around and and this guy'sson said I just don't- want to live the life that my family lives and I want anew life in Christ, and so he prayed that day the day that his dad went toprison for life. He prayed to receive Christ. An so yeah, really amazingstory, all the way around it. If all we had to lose was a couple hundredthousand dollars of stuff for that boy to be born again than I think it wastotally worth it yeah I mean because that's a big deal you're, not justturning in family. You are literally putting your life on the line againstthe cartel right, and I would like to thank you and we not only do we havewoke culture coming after us on the podcast. Now we got the car Sellin foldlike we were only on episode, eight may a were we. I don't know if I need to like relocateor what now that sounds like it's straight out of a movie like that. Thatsame is while I think those are the stories that we live. For you know,that's real. The kind of experiences we want to have to be able to you know,tell people when we go out funny story here. I woke up thismorning and I was like okay. I want to try to wear this old for today, shirtthat I have, because I read told you this the other day, you're the firstguest that we've had on the show that I was like a fan before I started doinglike research, and you know like getting to know you so I'm like Fanboing out over here. Just so everybody knows, but I was I was trying to put this on.So I used to be a part of I had started this like young adultsministry in my town called ignite and we would just meet in this abandonedbuilding. It was super sketchy and we would just like kind of talk about Godto whoever would show up mostly for people that wouldn't go to church.Normally, we were doing that. Well, my friendCody Byrne. He bought us these shirts that, since we recalled IC night, itsaid take my flame ignite the world for to day, and so he bought it for thewhole leadership team. Well, I thought I could fit into it today. Apparentlynot apparently I need a bigger size, but so instead I wore my young lifeshirt because when I think back to when I was a young life leader inKentucky, I would take a lot of my guys. You know I think, back to guys likeZack Lansford, instead of Collins, who I felt like they were so into the thescene, culture, the hardcore culture, and that it was. It was such an easyway for me to minister to them, because...

...it was like hey guys. You want to go tothe show Oh yeah D Bo, let's go so we'd, be driving down the road, and my I hada black cavalier called Lebron, because you know what else are you going tocall a bit caviler that you do or and we're riding Lebron and like we'reblasting, you know your music were blast in Augustine's red haste, the daywhatever to the show, and I mean they're rock. In this cavalier I mean Iwas like this car is going to break like it was old, but you know we get tothe show and and they'd want to be in the pit like they weren't the kids thatwanted to hang out in the back. They weren't the kids that wanted to takephotos in the front. They weren't the kids that wanted to stand off to theside and, like you know, just kind of like look all goth like like they werelike Debo. We want to be in the pit and I mean as teenagers they had so muchenergy like they could run around and I'm like mid twenty. So I'm like youknow, I still got it in me and I go in there and I try to throw down. I meanyou see my biceps like you're, just crushing kids. Look at this. I mean absolute JackCamera. If a medium sized woman got into the pit, I would get knocked outof a, and so I was doing this, I would always get a lot ofpush back from other members of the Church or people that I did likecommunity groups with because they'd be like Debo. It is not Christ like to getin a mash pit. It is not Christ like to slam dance like what about that is. IsChristian. You know. How can you justify like going in and like throwingdown so my question to you because I've given my defense and it never worked,they were just always like yeah you're wrong, you know. But what was yourdefence, because I mean you guys could have chosen any type of ministry andyou could a chose any genre, but you chose to go into the hardcoreChristian scene where you knew people be throwing down walls of death, allkinds of craziness like. How is that? How would you defend that as Christlike or okay, for Christians to do yeah? Well, we've got to understand a couple thingsI think, we're speaking purely theologically. You can't make a an argument fromsilence. If the Bible doesn't talk about something that itself is not anargument to say you know, Jesus didn't come out and say: Hey, I'm everybody,I'm cool with Mashing, and so therefore Jesus isn't cool with mashing. That's athat's a huge leap and that's not a conclusion that you really can drop, but I think just to put it in a rightcontext. I didn't view my place in the band as some sort of sacred holy. You Know Ministry that I would want totrain other people up in and launch them into it's. It was my job, you know,and I mean if certainly Jesus doesn't explicitly saythat he loves mashing, but he doesn't say that he loves accounting or realestate either, and I think we've got kingdom minded accountants and realtorsand surgeons and lawyers as well and and so for me that was just my job.It's it was. I had a skill set and an opportunity that sort of came togetherand I was able to support myself and my family doing it and also to pointpeople toward Jesus and so for me, I would just go to work. My job happenedto be performing music, writing and recording and performing music, and soI would just go into work every day, determined to point people to Jesus.While I was there and you know it's, my work may havelooked different than somebody else's work, but it was just it was just mywork and- and so I think, when you know when we get into the weeds of like, was it glorifying to God. I thinkit's, I think it's Anadan, it's the it's just the work that I would do andit's the job that I had. That's how I took care of my family, I think workingto take care of your family is certainly a biblical and holy thing,and I thank God that I had a skill set that was able to provide for my familyin that way. It just like a realtor or a graphic designer, or you know, asurgeon or whatever else so a podcaster, and I you know, I think I think that whatever you know, the lesson that I took awayfrom it was a broader one than just like God- loves hardcore music. I don'tyou know, I think that that God is interested in whatever he can use for his glory, andso I'm thankful that God was able to be glorified and the people were able tohear the Gospel because of the kind of music that we played, the kind ofvenues and environments that we went into, and I recognize that those peoplearen't listening to Christian realtors...

...or accountants. You know they'relistening to vocalist and or Gore bands, and so I'm thankful that God gave metheir attention for a season and it was a beautiful season, but I don't want tobe an apologist, for you know: Hardcore Subculture Ministry, that's you know orfor tattoos or for mashing those those aren't aren't hills thatI'm willing to die on. You know I'll stand for Jesus, in whatever context Ican. I think Jesus deserves to be the center of attention in every situationand circumstance whether it's in a church building or a you know a nightclub during a hard core concert and I'm deeply convicted about that. But I you know, I don't want to be the reasonthat somebody decides the hardcore music is cool. I want to be the reasonsomeone decides. Jesus is cool, and- and so that's I think you know theargument that I'd be willing to make in the stand I'd be willing to take isjust that. I think Jesus deserves to be talked about it and you know ifsomebody doesn't like hardcore music. Well, then, that's great, I'm sure Godwill give you other opportunities outside of that sphere to bring theGospel in your workplace for sure Yeah Yeah. Well, because for me you know, I was, I remember, episodethree talking to candace pain and I was talking about music that we will havein heaven and she was very about the fact that she was like there will bemuch pits in heaven. We will have like screaming it like hardcore music inheaven. So I'm like imagining the day where you have for today followed by aChris Tomlin Song, followed by a lacre song and just like all of that inheaven all types of people, you know maybe a little Kanye West to when we'rein heaven one day, but one of the things that I felt like was so distinct,and I don't know if this was the reason why you chose that as your ministry oryou know like okay, if I'm going to do one thing, but the diversity of theaudience you go to a hill song United Concert. Everyone in the audience istypically somebody that is a part of a local church body. You Go to A K B, rap show, even though it's hiphop typically everyone. There is going to be a believer in Jesus. You go to a fortoday. Show the audience was very diverse, not onlyin types of people but types of beliefs yeah. Sowhat was that like? Like? What was the? I don't know what the word economy, orjust I mean, because sometimes I'm sure you would have pastors like you said,and then you'd have people that probably hated what you were preachingyeah. I mean you know on our on our farewell to our I'veactually still got this little pentagram necklace pendant from a kidwho you ripped it off his neck. He writed off his own neck. He gave hislife to Jesus, what you know and it just totally. He said I just you know, hadthis Pentagram necklace on and and he came to to the show and waited aroundfor me afterwards to start an argument, and you know he said how can how canyou trust the Bible? And you know how do you know? How can God be good ifthere's bad things that happen in the world and all of these hard questions,and so we're talking about some of the stuff and and he I'm talking about how God isgood and why we can know that God is good and- and he says well, if God wasgood, then he would heal my back and I said well, what's what's wrong withyour back and he said I just. I think I've got a pinch nerve in it. It's beenexcruciating the painful like I can barely bend over. I said: Well, let's,let's pray, you know who knows all right, let's, let's try, and so so I lay hands on this back and I justpray a simple prayer like Jesus. The Bible says that by yourwounds we are healed, and so I ask you right now to heal his back. Let that become reality for him and because this is a Christian podcast. Iprobably can't repeat all that he said a lot of expletives a lot of expletivesafter I prayed for him, because the pain in his back suddenly left he bendsover to touch his toes, and he looks at me with his eyes as wide as saucers asa jaw on the floor. He's just losing his mind and he said I can't believethis and he starts running back and forth across the room and he's got acouple friends with him that we're kind of standing back from the conversationand now suddenly he's causing this huge commotion, he's cussing and screaming,and what the AFT did. You just do to me and how did that? How did that happen?and Oh, my gosh and and then he sort of runs around for about thirty secondsand then he comes back up to me and he rips the Pentagram off of his necklaceand he puts it in my hand, and he says I don't need this any more. He said Iwant, I want what you have, and so we prayed for him to make Jesus Thee Lordof his life. That day, and so you know,...

...you don't get that at the like HuberChristian conference right, that's the he was just there to to mash. He wasyou know he was there to hang with his friends and probably drink beer at thebar and and hang out, but I think that's the beautiful thing you knowsometimes a little messy and weird and you have people you know cussresponding to the move of God by cussing up a storm, but man, God was onthe move, and he saw that kid in that moment in that bar with all his issuesand confusion and brokenness and immaturity and still decided todemonstrate his love for him yeah I mean because you don't typically see a ticketed show containing Christianartists with you know what calm, secular artist or on Christian ars,whatever like you typically do. We would intentionally bring out not justsecular artists. We would bring out anti Christ bands bands that you know we would. Wewould go on right after the band with the Pentagram on their shirt, theupside down cross of the S N six six. We would do that on purpose act everclass. No, the reason it wouldn't clash is because, like Jesus is actually theLord of my life and Satan is not actually the Lord of theirs. I mean heis sort of by default, but like they don't love the devil, they just lovethe shock value of pretending to love the devil. You know, and so I thinkthat's. The thing is that their beliefs were just a show and my beliefs werewere real. It was really how I lived and continued to live my life, and sobehind you know on stages. There would pretend to be these like shockingaltara evil. You know heavy metal guys and then backstage they're, just sortof your average run of the middle atheist. WHO, like you, know, claims tobe an atheist because he thinks there's, probably not a god but doesn't reallyknow if you get him. If you get him talking and and frankly doesn't care toknow, because if he finds out that there is a god, then he suddenlybecomes accountable for his own actions and he doesn't want to be. He wants todo what he wants and I mean that's. You know the vastmajority of Satanists. I have met, that's where they actually fall there,agnostics, who pretend to be atheists, because it's easier to bury your headin this spiritual sand than it is to acknowledge your own accountability toGod, and the judgment really is coming for the choices that you make. So you know there was never a class. Ithink they respected our commitment to the stuff that we preached that wereally were the people off stage that we that we acted like on stage, and I you know and even why we may nothave agreed, spiritually or religiously. You know we did have quite a lot incommon. We were touring band members and we could talk about gear and shows,and you know we were having kind of similar life experiences. So we didhave some things in common that we could connect over yeah and I meanthey've got a respect, just the fact that you mean as musicians, you guyswere. You could stand to toto with any other band in that genre. I mean it notlike you guys were playing Basic House beats and you know like trying to bethe you know: Christians that are not as good as like. You know, the otherbands- and it's like. Oh you know they got on this tour because you knowthey're the we needed a Christian band like no. It was like for today they'rehere they're, going to jam they're going to get the audience going, and soyou guys could stand toto now on the so on one side of the spectrum. You havethis guy who's, like the Satanic Kid that you're praying over and he's givenus like to Christ. On the other side, did you have any fan interactions whereit was almost like? A supernatural kind of interaction with somebody where itwas like. Oh, like this, isn't just like a normalperson who has come to see our show did that ever yeah yeah yeah we playthere's one. I remember in particular, we played a show in North Carolina and you know it was interesting. There wereseveral bands before us and they would stand up on stage and they'd talk aboutpolitics and everybody would clap or they'd talk about. You know their relationship and theirlove for their mother and everybody would clap and they talk aboutbelieving in yourself and standing up for the people around you and everybodywould clap, and then I stood up on stage. I mentioned the name Jesus you know, and it always as soon as thename comes there's something about the name that just it demands a responseand this this girl toward the front. Shescreamed something like shut the FIB. This is an fin church, just really likevile and profane, an your wife. It was it wasn'tmy okay, not yet at least that, but she just she just screamed at meand- and I just say, like Hey- Jesus loves you, you know, and I justcontinue on and I don't know probably she spends the rest of the show likeholding her mental fingers up at me and...

...spitting at me, and it's just so upset. Now I looked for a bit after the showand didn't see her, but I got an email like the next day from her and and she said Hey, I just want toapologize. Like you know, that's not really my personality, I don't know whyI blurted out, like that. I don't know what would possess me to do. That was afunny choice of words and she says you know I don't know whatwould possess me to do that. She said like I'm, not a Christian, but I am into spirituality. I've beenreading the Satanic Bible and some of the writings of Anton The bay, and youknow she said recently. I've been having these dreams where these sort ofdark figures come into my room and they like choke me and hold me down at night,and she said I'm just you know I like. I don't really know what to make of allthat stuff, but she said I just something just cameover me when you started talking about Jesus, and I just I just didn't want tohear it. She said I don't know, maybe you couldpray for me or something, and so I rode back and I said, hey you know it'sinteresting, you would use the phrase. I don't know what would possess me todo this like there's something in your life that hates Jesus and I'd bewilling to bet that it's connected to those dark figures that come and attackyou at night I'd be willing to bet that is connected to the books that you'rereading and some of the stuff that you'refeeding yourself spiritually, and so I just begin to share the gospel withthis girl and she ends up receiving Jesus. She praysthere in her bedroom to receive Jesus as she's reading this. This email thatI sent back and- and she sends me a message- maybe aweek or so later- that she had a dream that these- that these dark figures came and sad inher bedroom on fire and she went to stand at her window and she saw Jesusdown at the bottom with one of those like like a blanket or whatever thetrampoline things that fireman hold and- and he was asking her to like jump tojump out of the window, to trust him and that he would catch her, and so sheshe eventually joms and Jesus catches. Her and- and she said I've just neverhad peace like this before this is incredible. She said. I know that Jesusis my my savior and that he saved me from those things that I was exploring before. So you know we had alot of people, they weren't all that successful some people. A Word is realangry at me, and that was the way it ended, but yeah you know there were thedramatic responses to the Gospel. In that context. Some you know: you'd have a person withtheir middle fingers in the air cursing at me, and spitting on me, standingright next to somebody with tears, running down their cheeks as theyraised their hands and surrender to Jesus. For the first time it wasbeautiful. That is absolutely beautiful, yeah. I know when Ashley and I we didthis road trip around the United States. We actually ended up somewhere, I guessSouth Dakota, because we went through like Montana and Wyoming. We saw thedesolate yeah so we're in South Dakota, and westayed at this haunted hotel. We had no idea that it was haunted prior to showing up the Roosevelt Johnson or something likethat, so we're there. We show up and like immediately the guys like heywe've got these ghost detectors. If you want to go around and like you know,find you know some like spirits, you can there's like some some evil spirits,that kind of like haunt these different sections of our hotel and so we're kindof. Like I mean Yolo, I guess you got to go like check this stuff out orwhatever, and so we're like going around, because I mean we're like thisis all like: a hundred percent fake, it's a hoax and so we're walking aroundand then all of a sudden. You know it starts like going crazy in this onespot and we're like what like, okay and a guys with US rely. What happened herelike this is where the Guid died like this is the spot, and so I am yeah youpull it back, nothing you put there and go crazy, so we're like okay. This ismaybe this is like some legit stuff. I don't know: let's let just get out ofthis section: Let's go to our room like be done with it and it was like afterwe stayed at that resort and that our not a resort is just a hotel after westayed there actually started having these dreams kind of, like you were talking aboutlike dark figures and she'd wake up like the same time, every night andjust kind of like in a sweat and- and we talked about like okay, what do wedo like? We need to pray over this and she had this moment where one of theKnights, these dark figures are there. She starts praying like I guess in herdream, for Jesus to come and singing worship,and she said in that moment she just felt like and she could see Jesusshowing up and just casting out like all of these dark spirits, and I thinkit was like the first time in her life that she ever had. I don't know if youconsder that spiritual warfare or what...

...was really happening there, but it waslike, after that everything was gone, and so she didn't tell anyone becauseshe was raised Catholic and so, like you know, in the Catholic Church, youdon't really talk about that. A lot I mean, I guess you have the exorcistmovie or the where the priest is like you know, but having like a real life encounter withyou know, maybe like a demonic spirit or like an evil force. She can tell mewell. Finally, she tells me- and I'm talking to one of my friends just inabout it because he's like all in to you know connecting to the Holy Spiritand like the spiritual realm, and he tells us a story of his friend thatwent through the exact same thing. Exact same thing happens, so it wasjust like I don't know there are things in the spiritual realm. I feel likethat. Sometimes, as a Christian when you're trying to explain it doesn't always make sense to people,I guess when you, when you talk about it and I'm probably hacking that storyfrom athlete, but I am interested in maybe an explanation, because this wassomething from your band that you guys put out. I was the breaker album. Italso showed up on your last album wake and it was the symbol. The cover, artand they're not going to be able to see it on the camera, and I just I'm sorryyou're not going to be able to hear what this looks like on the podcast.But it is a very interesting symbol. Yeah and I've never seen anything likethis in the Bible. Also, I don't have pictures in my Bible, so I guess that's.Why and I've never seen anything like this in Christian art, but what is themeaning behind the symbol, so the this cover was was actually somethingthat I sort of discovered on a cash when we were in the studiorecording this album. We were. I was working on lyrics and things, and therewas a similar design that I saw. I can't even remember whereit was on some. I don't know new age apparel website or something high timeand hot topic- com, spencers gift, and- and I just you know, so it is prettybiblical. The Bible talks about these creatures that fly around the throne ofGod called Seraphim, and I was really sort of studying them a lot and theword Seraphim means an Hebrew means burning ones, and the Bible describes them ascreatures that have six wings with two wings that cover their face with two:they cover their feet and with two they fly and that's really. What is centralto this picture is that idea of the Seraphim- and you know it's interesting-that, like God, who's described is biblically as being like a Jasperand a stadio stone or one that looks like he's burning from the waist up andburning from the waist down by Eskel, and so there's this. You know sort of glowing red fiery intensity around thethrone of God, so much so that those that are closest the creatures closestto him are described as burning ones, and I thought there was just something really amazing and awe inspiring aboutthe nature of God. I mean he's not just an you know: An old white man with abeard and a robe. You know the way that the gods described in a lot of detailand scripture, and it's it's pretty intense and pretty other worldly, andwhat it produces is that the ones closest to him are a are defined,they're characterized and named as burning you know and and then there's the old.The old quote, I want to say by Westley that says something like set yourselfon fire and the whole world will come to watch. You Burn, and you know, there's just this. I thinkalmost indifference toward toward the holiness and the intensity,The majesty and supremacy of God, but I think, as we get close to that stuff,that we recognize who he is and what he's like and seeingGod clearly, it transforms the way that we see ourselves the way that we actand think and live and prioritize things as well. And so you know what we made that that logothat we came up with during the breaker album cycle that really stuck with usthrough the rest of of the time that we were in the band. It was a Seraphimlogo, and that was we wrote a song on Seraphin. That says we are the burningones. You know, and so I think that that became sort of a central theme ofa lot of my lyrics and a lot of our thinking around the band was we wantedto be. You know, a creature, a creation that came so close to the creator thathis fire became our fire, that his passion became our passion that hisintensity became our intensitys and...

...that we could really reflect him to theworld. HMM. I was such a proud, older brother, when my younger sisterrequested Seraphim to play at her sweet. Sixteen Birthday party I DJ is Ann. Itwas funny just watching all the kids. You Know Slam dance in the middle oflike all these hip hop, and you know pop songs. It was funny I love it yeahwill we ever get to see a for today reunion for no not even like an acoustic like heywe're older. Now we're just going to play our songs, I maybe so that wouldthat would exclude me. I wouldn't no one was to scream over acoustic guitar,so I think I would. I would gladly attend one of the stops on that concertand watch the really talented musicians in the band. They would need you thereI feel like they would need you there more for just because for today what Ithink stood. You said you guys, apart from every other band, was that youweren't just musicians like you would literally get up and and preach a wordand with passion and with fire. So I think they would need you, even if itwas just to like open, maybe and like maybe I could be a Hologram like theydid with two pocket that Coachella, maybe maybe get the rest of the band for Real,and then you do a Maddie, Montgomery, Hologram and everybody's happy yeah begreat. How how did Lee just sonit sounds? Like I hate thebanner like I don't get along with the guys. We still have a group chat. Fiveyears later. I love them so much they're great. We get along awesome.You Know We Ryan the guitar player just found out his wife's having tripletswell less his heart. So so we're like texting about fatherhood and I'm makingfun of him and stuff. And it's you know we just we love each other, reallydearly and it, but it just. It was just the right time to move on you know andand the band was still doing well and itwas we all still got along with each other, and I think Christians. You knowwe sort of have a tendency to like stick to something when its working andwe make the method our master instead of God himself. But you know I didn'tjoin the band because I thought it would be a smart strategy to advance mycareer. I join the man because it's what God called me to do so when Godstarted calling me away from that. You know I, where I wanted to be, wasnot on a stage or in the spotlight where I wanted to be was in obedienceand submission to the word in the will of God for my life, and so when theLord called us away, my wife and I it was that was it. That was the end of it.You know, and so I don't really have any kind of bitterness toward the guysin the band or the bandit itself or the lifestyle or anything. It was amazing,amazing experiences, but it's just not where I'm made to be anymore, yeah andnow you're overseeing in church. So I'm curious. How did leading fortoday Wili help you to now pastor a church, yeah good question. I think, being away from the Church so regularlylike I said we were playing three hundred shows a year when, for thefirst several years we were in the band, I think, being away from the church, soregularly made me really passionate about Christian Fellowship. I sort of Iwas a kid raised in church and I think, probably for a lot of people raceingchurch, it's easy to take church for granted and to think you know I stayedup late Saturday. I don't really want to get up early and go to church onSunday or you know the people are, I can be a little cheesy, sometimes orthe the pastors jokes aren't as funny as he thinks they are. You know andthere's a lot of reasons that we can be really critical of the Church inOrlando. It's, Oh, it's raining. It's Rin averts right right and I think youknow there's like what a an insanely privileged society. We areas American Christians to to be able to just to have church so easily accessible tous that we can afford to criticize it and to just leave that church and go tothe one down the street or to just all skip this Sunday, and you know I'llcatch the podcast or I'm staying home and watching the live stream. You knowwhen there are our brothers and sisters around the world that in risk their lives to meet with theone group of Christians in their entire city and it's a group of a hundredpeople and that's that's all there is and they have to meet in some basement.If anybody ever finds out they meet there, then they'll get murdered for it,like that's a reality that our family is living and where, like it's raining,so I'm not going you know and so and I'll just catch the podcast, it's justso we're sort of so privileged and so comfortable and- and so- and I was llike that. I think many people are like...

...that. I was like that until I couldn'tget to church, because I was on tour all the time and I remember you know,waking up some some Sunday mornings after havingplayed a show and gotten in at two a m on Saturday night and I would juststart walking and find whatever church was closest to the hotel of the house.We were staying at it, just walk into some random church and sit in the backrow and just cry like thank you got thank you, God, I'm not the onlyChristian in the room. You know, thank you, God that I'm not surrounded by youknow critical, combative people who are given me the finger and spitting on mefor this thing you know it's so good to get poured into, and and so I justreally developed a high view of the holiness of Church ofgathering together with other believers, and it was something that it made mereally really grateful. You know says: Absence makes the the heart grow,fonder thing they say, and so you know I was absent from the Churchreally for about ten years and during that time man. I just had a realfondness for the church as a whole for just the gathering together believers,how special and significant sacred that is so. I think that is probably thebiggest thing. It also taught me to deal with belligerent, immature peoplewhich, as you wouldn't imagine, sometimes sometimes occurs whenpasturing a church. What you know I'm yeah studying it taught me to takecriticism really. Well, because you know you have the people cussingyou out in front of a room full of people. You don't generally have thatpastoring in church sometime, but you haven't had anyone showed tothe altar fellowship double middle fingers, the whole time you'repreaching not yet I did have a guy stand up in the middle of a message andscream at me and storm out angrily pretty recently just a couple monthsago. Is He drunk? No? He he had a sort of preconceived notionfor what all Christians and all preachers are like, and you know he sort of believes that you know Christian, noChristian preachers teach the Bible anymore and it's all just opinion, andso I was just introducing the message for that night. Introducing myself andsaying glad you guys are here and- and I quoted an old African proverb thatsays if you want to go far go alone. But if you sorry, if you want to gofast, go alone, but if you want to go far go together, how dare you rightwell and he was like furious, because he thought I'm going to teach a wholemessage on an African proverb instead of the word of God, and I was like well,if you give me just a minute like I'm, just I'm just introducing the conceptto people of like fellowship and unity, and I think that was a message on the theessential interdependency of kingdom culture. Lo and so I was going to getthere and I talked about you know I always teach out of theBible. You know I think expository preaching is, is your best bet to preach accuratelyhave the word of God, if you're just teaching what the word of God says, and so that's ninety nine times out of a hundred.That's what that's, how my message is structured? It's just I just teachthrough a portion of the Bible, but he didn't stay long enough to hear theport to the back pole. He actually did he stormed off. He was real angry, buthe did end up. So a couple of the guys from the Church went out and talked tohim and and then he ended up coming back in andapologizing afterwards. For that burst and and later that day he went to havelunch and set down and the server came up to get his drink order and he waslike where's, my food. Why is my I not here they're like well, there's aprocess. Yeah! That's right were or or just introducing myself to you, yeah yeah, welcome to Cheddars, and now I'mgetting yelled at Yeah's right. So I'm curious with you, because you'reprobably when you're like the the head of a church you're having to make a lotof decisions, probably get yelled at for the Cresus, is the head of thechurch on the neck. Oh okay, I try. I connect the body to the head,that's Wi a thick neck that not a scrawny one for sure. So as theneck of the church, you're, probably making decisions like okay, what colorof carpet do we want? People are yelling at you that that's wrong orwhat kind of wall paper do we want to have? But I think a lot of what I seenow developing in our generation of I don't know you an call it post, modernchurch whatever, but you see a lot of heavy production churches, and so I'mcurse your stance because it's like on one side, you have people that arearguing, give your best to God. He wants. You know if you're very artisticshow that off you know we always give your best, but then you have people onthe other side that are saying this is...

...literally just entertainment, focusedand you're. Bringing people in as like consumers, yeah and you know, is likebrain dad. Christians like Oh concert and then a stand up comedian, and thenyou go home right. So so, where do you stand and what's that line in betweenthere yeah? I, my official stance is, I don't care the method it matters in that like we can take away from or distract from what God is wanting todo? Certainly so so I think the method matters in that regard, but in the sameway that I could be the pastor of a little church up in the mountains ofEast Tennessee or I could be the front man of a hardcore band playing in a sold outshow in Los Angeles. It's the same. It's the same message that permeatesthe movement, and so if you have got a mega church with thirty thousand peoplein it and lasers and fog machines- and you know just world class production,but but your central message is the gospel of the Kingdom. Then come onmore power to you, that's beautiful. You know if you're a local church thathas been in the same building for the last thirty years and have never hadmore than a hundred people in your congregation and your main message is,and you don't have any production, it's just the the preacher preaching and hiswife Playing Piano and leading worship by yourself, like son on the triangle,N, a yeah, you know, and those churches are holy too. It's a beautiful thing aslong as their central message is the message of the gospel of the Kingdomyea, and so I think you know we treat methodologies likethey themselves are sacred and they're, not God as sacred, and so what you know, what works about, for example,Rick, Warren Pastor, Saddleback Church when the base churches in the country,incredibly influential and just massive church. You Know WhatWorks for Rick Warren Works for Rick Warren because he's being obedient towhat God called him to do. Now. If I try to be obedient to what God calledRick Warren to do it's not going to work for me, I could emulate hismethods and strategies, but the thing that works so well about Rick Warren isthat it is that it's birthed from obediencefrom a genuine desire to honor what he knows. God has called him to do it'shis authenticity that that makes his ministry impactful. Now, I'm the same,the other side of the same coin. You know I was sort of raised in theministry by a spiritual father down in Mobile Alabamathat is passed or the same church for thirty three years now, and I don'tthink the church has ever been more than two hundred people, and he is, youknow, as kids are on stat he's just a faithful man of God, who's just walkingthe path, one step at a time and he's training, making training up and ayoung man raising up disciples and sending them out and and he's just anamazing, faithful man of God, whose world looks totally different than Rickwarrants is teaching sounds totally different than rick warrants. Hismethods and his approaches are totally different than rick warrants, and yetmy spirit of father would tell me matter. You can't answer God's call onmy life. You need to answer God's call for your life and I think that's thethe thing that we have to understand is that that the the system or the methodology, isn't it'snot holy? It's just it's not any more holy than the plate. That brings yourfood. Nobody really cares. What kind of plate the food comes on they're afterthe food itself, and so I don't really care about what kind of play the foodcomes on as long as the food gets to me, like that's the you know, that's theimportant thing, because it's not made of like, like those paper straws thatlike does as long as it's not the S, that's a absolute deal. Breaker yeah, there's afew churches that are like paper, straws, okay, the art they fall apartunder the way of the message, but I think there's like this. You know this sort of obsession withwhat what what method is best and frankly, I think it's whatever method,God calls you to. As long as the message stay, central and Jesus is kingand your church, then I think you're fine, you know not for us at the altar, theChurch of that pastor. You know- and maybe it's an overcompensation from having been a performer for ten years, but you knowwe're sort of real. Lo Key and I sort of have jokingly, said to ourcongregation a couple months ago: I'm trying to figure out how we can changethe world without letting our church get any bigger we want to. You know we I'm thankfulfor the people that got a sent us and you know, there's more people. It feelslike moving into the city to join the church every week, but we are, we've got an awesome community ofamazing people and I'm having so much funky to know them and walking throughlife together, but our church. You know,...

...we've got some Edison lights around and you know it's not it's not big. Onproduction, it's you know we really just emphasize family and we're tryingto build an environment that is conducive to family time and lettingour kids dance and worship with us and be free and explore what God's presenceis like and you know so we're not. We don't haveany fog machines or lasers or anything like that, and I think that's what'sright for us yeah, but churches. They have that stuff. You know I love themand bless them, and I hope that they succeeded. Everything goes go into forsure and I think that's so huge with so many things our world, because peoplewill point at oh it is that way, which means all of these other million things.Oh, if they have lasers. Well, then they're this type of church Roh. Theyhave o fog machine they're going to you, know, preach in this way, and I thinkthat you know so. Many I feel like Satan is using division inso many ways, just not only in a church but in the world right now. By sayingthat this one little thing makes this. The whole thing I mean Kanye West comesout on stage with Marilyn Manson and the baby and all of a sudden he's asatanist. You know because, just because of who he brings on stage withhim and it's like did you listen to the music like, and I think that our worldneeds to understand that not only things and places, but peoplethemselves are just so much more complex than being able to say. There'sblack, there's, white and there's just two sides were and there's so muchother thing. I have your Church's mission statement here and you werekind of bouncing around it as you were speaking,but it's to succeed in family and to thrive and worship yeah. I think I havethat right. I'm curious what are the intentional things that you guys do totry and accomplish that? Oh Gosh there's a long list. You know, I think for me, as as an evangelistic voice for so manyyears as the one that would come in for one one night or one weekend, whether it was at a concert or acrusade or conference. I saw altars full of people, people. That would sayI want to begin a life with Jesus, it's a beautiful thing and we rejoiced inthat. I'm so grateful for those sort of life defining moments the moment ofsalvation, for somebody it's a beautiful thing, but there was always a burden in my heartabout well what next you know when I pray over them at the altar and they'recrying and they turn around and walk away. What are they walking away into?What kind of home are they going into? What kind of city or community, andwhat kind of Group of friends- and you know I recognize that were not called to make converts of allnations- were called to make disciples of every nation and disciple shouldtakes time it takes. You know, consistent progress toward maturity or to the endgoal of Christ likeness, and so how do we make disciples- and I think,that's been a huge part of sort of the thoughtprocess or the driving one of the driving thoughts that has moved astoward our vision for church. In fact, I would even say: Jesus giveshis disciples. A new commandment is new. Commandment is love each other, as Ihave loved you and he says by this, the world will know you are my disciplesfor the way you love one another and John Seventeen Jesus praise for allbelievers. He starts by praying for his disciples and they said I don't prayfor them alone, but for all of those who will believe in me through theirmessage. That's that's you and me, and then he says I pray that they would beone just as you father are and me, and I am and you I pray that they alsowould be one and not so that the world will know that I was sent by God and soso twice. Jesus hangs, not only our identity as disciples, but his identity.Ask God in the flesh, the son of God, the second person of the God, that hehangs the revelation of his own Lordship on the unity of the church,our the depth of our devotion and commitment to each other, and- and so it's interesting because inour evangelistic efforts we think it's going to be the miracle that God doeswhen we're praying for the sick person or that it's going to be the lights and the fog machines, orthat it's going to be the coffee shop we have in the lobby of the church orthat it's going to be. You know the Super Bowl out reach with free pizzaand wings or whatever right that that's going to be the thing that bringssomebody to the acknowledgment of the Lordship of Jesus or we think it'sgoing to be our apologetics. You know, or intellectual or persuasive preachingnow. All of the I think we should do all those things I love Pizza Party outreaches. I think that we should be great Ed apologetics. We should be ableto defend our faith, but at the end of the day, Jesus explains in JohnSeventeen that that the thing that will help o awaken the world to the identityof Christ is the unity of the church.

And, and so I have this suspicion, andI think it was born from trying to trying to read and believe what theBible says. I have this suspicion that that my ministry will be moreevangelistically fruitful if it's a ministry, that's birthed from a deepdevotion between people and between a group of people and God than it ever would be if we focused allof our resources and energy on reaching more people. And so you know, I havesaid that I think there's that there's no more effectiveevangelistic force than an exalted Christ reigning in the hearts of aunified church, and so I think, when we stand togetherto experience and Exalt Jesus with one voice across our culturalboundaries across our racial boundaries, across generational boundaries anddenominational boundaries. What happens is that we become thegreatest evidence for the legitimacy of the Gospel and- and I don't just wantto tell the world of the Gospel I want to show the World The Gospel, and Ithink that starts in the way that we cultivate family, and so that's that'swhy we prioritize family. That's why we prioritize worship, because the Biblesays sorry, I've heard it said- sounding theBible. I've heard it said. I've heard it said that cause creates communitythat having a common focus of common priority, it drawspeople together. You know it's why players on the same football team will,like you, know, really fight for each other and really stand up for eachother because they have a common goal. Yeah, and so what's our common goal isa church? Is it to win the world? Is it to preach to more people? I think youknow if we come together as family we've got to have a common cause andevangelism is critical. It's really really important and I spent many yearsof my life doing it and training other people to do it. But I recognize that there is a daycoming and a day coming soon when there will be no more evangelism and and andwhat endures in that day, there's worship that a hundred million yearsfrom now will still be lost in loving Jesus. And so I want to help not onlybuild a culture where people are really deeply devoted to one another, but alsoa culture where the the sort of core principle of who we are and what we dois to enjoy and experience. Jesus like the Westminster, shorter catechism saysthat the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, and so wewant to see God glorified, not only in the way that we tell people about God'slove for them he or Jesus death and burial and resurrection. But we want tosee God glorified in the way that we love one another, but we also want to make sure that wecommit ourselves to enjoying him and enjoying him forever, because thatreally is our eternal call. Man, that's phenomenal. It's like! Would you ratherhave a hundred men trained and armed to fight for you, or would you rather havean army of a thousand who don't know what they're doing right and- and Imean I online I'll- take ten trained guys that work pretty well togetherover over a thousand? You know people who don't know each other and everyman's looking out for himself an you just, don't know who's going to bedoing what you can. You can get a lot done with a small group yeah somewherein the middle of all of that that you were saying you said something about like racial national, sexual kind ofdifferent things. I know our world puts all these new labels on those things. Ican't keep up with all the labels, yeah, yeah and and some Christians YellSinners. You know at them, and you know you know horrible things, and then youhave the other side. That's like. Oh, it should be loving everyone andaccepting everything and just taking people for who they are, and my thingis like okay, I don't think that loving someone equals acceptance. Ialso don't think that you should be out there screaming at these people wherewhere's your stand on that hot topic, I have never met a person who believes weshould be out screaming at a people. I know they exist, except that guy in mychurch I was get ready to say yeah just but yeah. I think they exist, butyou know we're sort of fighting an invisible, not an invisible, but an irrelevantenemy. In that regard, you know it's like it's sort of like our nation'sobsession with with white supremacy and like are their white supremaiss sure.Are they a relevant voice in our...

...culture, not even a little bit, and sowe can go protest, white supremacy! If you want what I think father listenersis probably a way bigger issue that we're actually trying to effect changelike white supremacy, it's the boogy man in America, I've been a person ofcolor, my entire life and yeah. Anyway. That's a rabbit trap,probably for another podcast, but I think here's the issue, man. I think, ifwe're talking about sexual orientation, which it sounds like we are, that that we're dealing with an issue thatattaches itself to people's identity, you know it's, it's not just what somebody does orwhat somebody likes or prefers it's like who they are. If you can't acceptmy sexuality, then then you're rejecting me as a person, and you know I suppose my response to thatwould be. I just I just disagree with that. I disagree with that because Ithink that you're more than your sexuality, you know I may disagree withyour your sexual expression or are your sexual impulses, but I also think that you know you're,probably a creative and compassionate and intuitive and intelligent person,and I think you have a lot more to offer than just who you want to sleep with, and I think that's that's one of theissues is that we sort of make people this monolithic, expression of their sexualorientation or their race or their gender, and then, therefore, there isno more room for any any more nuanced conversation you know like there may bea black person who is you know, an unarmed black person thatgets shot by a police officer like that's an unjust thing. You know ifthey get shot unjustly, then then that's wrong and it's terrible and thatpolice officer should be dealt with really harshly now part of that person's story may be.They made some really terrible decisions in their past and they'vedone some really nasty and horrible things, and so do they suddenly nowdeserve to be shot unjustly by a police officer. No- and I think you know, Ithink our issue is that we we, that it's like there's a white cop thatshot a black civilian and that's just the beginningand end of it and all this guy eldest copies is a white cop and all the blackperson is is a black civilian and there's no more room for any morenuance conversation. So I'm sorry, I'm getting off on rabbit trails. I'm I'vegot a lot of feelings, but that's all the very rely yeah, but I think whenyou know we're talking about sexual orientation and how we deal with it asChristians, I think, first of all, I think we're all pretty pretty bad at teaching biblical standards on Sexuality, and Iwould say as bad as we are at teaching it we're probably even worse at livingit out, and I think that probably underminesour ability to call anybody to accountability. When you know, divorcesamong Christians are just as high as divorce is wrong. Non Christians, andso I think, there's in rates of like infidelity and abusein marriage and Christian marriages are just as high as those rights and NonChristian marriages. So I think, there's an issue with that, but I thinkalso you know we say like love the sinner and hate this in and that's anice Christian catch phrase, but the the truth is, I think, most of thepeople, I've known who say that are much more interested in hating the sin than they are loving thesinner, and so you may go out and want to protest or you know, legislate orbring some sort of correction post to facebook post. You know whatever aboutsomebody sin issue, but I feel like loving. The center is apre requisite to to hating their sin. Here's what I mean the woman caught inadultery is brought to Jesus she's, guilty and she's, surrounded by people thatwant to take her life. They want to stone her to death and they say wellJesus. What should we do and he saves her life? First now it's interestingbecause he doesn't pull her aside and say: Hey. Do you promise to never dothis again? In fact, we don't know what she does after this. You know I'd loveto find out that she totally repented and followed Jesus for the rest of herlife. She might have gone straight back into bed with the man she was withbefore the story started. I think that's the incredible thing Jesus saysto her. After all of her accusers leave, he says hes without saying let him castthe first stone, and...

...so they all begin to drop the stonesand they walk away and Jesus gets down at her eye level,and he says: Where are your accusers as no one condemned you and she says noand he says well, neither do I can den condemn you go and sin no more and Ifeel like generally, we have one of two camps. People set up chop in the.Neither do I condemn you camp, like your sin, is no big deal no problem orwe set up shop in the go and send no more camp. You better clean up your actand I think it it takes both of those phrases to adequately convey the graceof God that you're not condemned in the the the the appropriate response to the mercyyou've been shown is to turn away from the sin that got you in this situationto begin with, and so I think I think we've got to be grace peoplegraceful people like, I think, if you've got a homosexual friend or coworker or family member, that your first impulse needs to beloved and then and love in a way they can feel like Jesus. Didn't just tellthis woman hey neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. He saved her life.He defended her from the people that sought to destroy her and, and I thinkthat making sure that a homosexual person can feel your love has to beyour first priority. They need to know that you love them. You can't just tellthem. I love you, you got to get your stuff together, you got to show them ina way that they can say. Undeniably, this person is for me, like that's whatthe woman called an adultery. What was faced with that she knew undeniablythat Jesus was for her. He was with her. He was on her side and then from thatplace of the position of compassion from theposition of trust that had been produced because of the love hedemonstrated for her, then he was able to say: Listen, I don't condemn youeither, but it matters what you do go and sin no more, and so I think that's probably my first and mostimportant point on that is that love it has to be a prerequisite foraccountability and not just a internal feeling of love, but an an outwarddemonstration of it toward the person that were seeking to hold accountable. I was waiting for two more points as apastor. You have three points right. If that was the first, there's got to beto no I'm Jigot more points and- and I feel like I if that was thecase, if every Christian lived out like that, like how radically different ourworld look, how how better the church would look honestly if, if that was howwe lived down our faith, then- and it was loving the person before calling out their sin.You know, and I love that as a pre requisite you mentioned and talked on the fatherless. You were starting off,saying yea more people are worried about racial inequality or whitesupremacy than the fatherless and that's the whole mission behind youngMary Christian is. You know there are four hundred thousand kids and fostercare in America and also the same number of churches. You know bothroughly four hundred thousand, and so our mission is to get every child inthe Foster Care System into a Gospel Center at home, but also we arepassionate about families and in succeeding whether theybe just a couple. That's married or they have kids together, but I thinkthat for us to have marriages that thrive,we also have to understand what the Bible and what God's purpose is behindmarriage. So how does the Bible define marriage because it's not just theticket to having sex right right? It's right! It's not no sex than sex andmarriages right. That's where you got to get to get God's stamp of approvalyeah! So that's how a lot of young Christian guys, especially approach itlike Yeah Yeah! That's God loves it. You know and there's just no no revelation of what changes and it'sinteresting, because every married couple I meet thinks that when they'reengaged or every engaged couple I meet, theythink that while we're engaged were committed, you know deeply in thisrelationship were basically married and you see a lot of couples fall intosexual sin because of that they think. Well, it's pretty much the same thing.You know what what could be different, we're in a deeply committedrelationship. We just haven't, walked down the aisle. Yet that can't makethat big, a difference. Crazy thing is, it does, and I can't begin to explainit to you, but every married couple I know will say no matter what kind ofsin they lived in prior, how they may have lived together and slept togetherprior to getting married. But when you stand before God and say, I vow to loveyou for the Restt of my life,...

...so it is something shift. It's a deeplyspiritual and significant transformation that happens, and so it does change things now. So so, ifwe're asking what the Bible's definition for marriages, I think yougot to go to Ephesians chapter five. Now, let's go to Genesis, one first, Oh,come on, you got to have a beginning. We you gotto have a beginning. That's right! That's right! It's a God says in Genesis. One Twentysix is really interesting says. Then God said: Let us make man in our imageaccording to our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,over the birds of the air and over the cattle over all the earth and overevery creeping thing that creeps on the earth. Verse Twenty Seven says so: Godcreated man in his own image. In the image of God, He created him male andfemale. He created them now. This is really interesting right, becausegoddess is saying: I'm going to make a man in my image and what is God's image,it's male and female. Now, that's, I think, contrary to a lot of teaching, Imean we always refer to God as he right, but there's a name for God in scripturecalled El Shad I shad is the Hebrew word for, like a Woman's Breast Elsa.Die Means, like literally translated means, like the many breasted one, it'sa picture of God's that out of his own self, he nurtures and sustains hischildren. The people that are hids and so there's a there are. There is abiblical sort of picture of God as being one that that has masculine attributes,of course, he's a warrior king of a father, but also of having feminine attributesas well. Now, I'm not saying that God is both male and female. I'm sayingthat God is neither male nor female God is God and and that the attributes ofGod are demonstrated not only through the masculine but also through thefeminine that all people are made in the image of God? And that's where weget. This idea from all people are made in the image of God and in fact, malesthemselves cannot demonstrate the the nature of God, because when God makesman, he says I'm going to make man in my image and if I'm going to act act ifman is going to accurately carry my image, we're going to need mail andfemale to do that, and so he makes them male and female to demonstrate hisimage now. This is why you know I teach it at the church andpretty openly that marriage should be a monogamous, faithful, life, long covenant between aman and a woman, but in one man and one woman, because it's the purpose ofmarriage isn't to satisfy your sexual desires. The purpose of marriage isn'tto create create more financial stability. The purpose of marriage isactually to demonstrate the nature of God and a genesis. One, what wediscover in Genesis, one twenty six and twenty seven- is that the nature of Godcan really most adequately be demonstrated by the masculine and thefeminine being presented simultaneously and in communion with with each other. So that's first point genes is one twenty six, twenty sevenand then and then there's Ephesians five, it's real scandalous. It starts inverse. Twenty two I esiste says wives submit to your husband's jest to theLord. Oh, my God, why I know they're going to march and Gon March outside mychurch. Next week, every woman just took her ear phones out well done with.I hope I hope she doesn't, because the I want to go back to verse Twenty One.It says the virst one says submitting to one another in the fear of God, andso the idea of submission isn't something that's mutually applied to tothe female to the life in a relationship. The idea of submission issomething that all believers, if they're succeeding, if they're seekingto succeed in covenant community with people in their church with people intheir family with their spouse, it's going to take mutual submission,and so it's not actually an issue of like husbands should dominate orcontrol their wives. It's actually an issue of like husbands are theaccountable party, and I think that's you know when you look back at thestory of Adam and Eve eve ate the fruit first eve was the one that opened thedoor. She ate the fruit first and then she convinced Adam to eat it as well,and that's why? Okay, let's get really scandalous! You ready sorry, I'm passionate about this stuffman. We don't. We don't understand God's plan for gender or from marriage,and it starts it starts here. It's all over the Bible. It's not a big secret,which is we just don't like it, because we're scared of responsibility anyway.So so it so in Genesis, three, the fall ofman, the serpent says to the woman in verse,for He says you will not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eatof this fruit, your eyes will be opened and you will be, like God, knowing goodand evil. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it waspleasant to the eyes I and in a tree...

...desirable to make one wise, she tookhim its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband who was with her and he ateso so eve made the choice she made the decision. She opened the door for sinto enter the world, and then she says to Adam Hey. You should eat some ofthis as well. So when you fast forward the Lord comeslooking for them and he asked Adam. Where are you and Adam said? I heardyour voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked and I hidmyself and, and so the Lord begins to talk withthem and and he's having to decide. Do I choosewoman or do it she's got? What do I do with these people yeah? So so the LordGod said to the Serpent Yeah. So so the look God said to theserpent, because you've done this, you are cursed more than all the cattlemore than every beast of the field and your belly, you shall go and shall eatdust all the days to your life, I'll, put enmity between you and the womanbetween your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head and you shallbruise his heel now. That, I think, is an allusion to the seed of woman. Thatis a man born of a woman. That's Jesus, being born of Mary wouldbe the one to bruise or to crush the head of the serpent. I think that's abeautiful thing that God said at the very beginning: You're already. I already have a plan this. This wasn'ta surprise, but if I fast forward to what God says to Adam so he starts withthe serpent and then he goes to the woman and then in verse. Seventeen ofgenesis three says then to Adam. He said because you have heeded the voiceof your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded, you sayingyou shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground for your sake and toil. Youshall eat of it all the days of your life, so so he brings two accusations againstAdam. The the second accusation is that he ate from the tree that he'd beencommanded not to eat of it. But the first accusation is that he had heatedthe the hows. It say: You've heeded the voiceof your wife. Now another transit translation says because you listen toyour wife and ate the fruit of this tree. Curses is the ground for yoursake, but- and I you know guys at men's conferences- love this, because I saythat it's a sin to listen to your to your wife, because it sounds like it'sa sin to listen to your right, but here's the issue that there actually issome legitimacy to this, not that Adam shouldn't have listened to his wife,but the what happened is that Adam didn't lead where he was supposed tolead M. God said you made your wife lead, you made your wife choose. Youmade your wife, the head of the House, and that dysfunction is what has causednow the curse that you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life,and so the first accusation God brings against Adam, isn't that he ate thefruit, it's that he subjected himself to his wife that he was supposed to beleading so anyway. That means that the the issue is that you know eve eats thefruit first and Adam is the one that has to answer questions about it. Goddoesn't come walking in the garden. Looking for Eve San Eve, how could youdo this to your husband? How dare you tempt him in this way? You shouldn'thave led him like this. That's what it means to be the head of a house. Itdoesn't mean you get to dominate. It means that you have to answer for whathappens in your home. Even your wife's, spiritual and emotional and physicalwell being becomes your responsibility as a husband come on anyway, so wives, summit to your own husbands. Asto the Lord, for the husband is head of, the wife has also Christ is head of theChurch and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore, just as the church issubject to Christ, let wives be to their own husbands and everything.Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gavehimself for her. So the standard for wives I submit to your husbands. Thestandard for husbands is to love. Your wife, like Jesus, loves the church.That's way harder. Basically, God says husbands, you love your wives. LikeJesus and wives. You let him like. Let him love you, the way that Jesus lovesthe church and we all know how jeus ended up loving the church he laidhimself down for her. That's exactly right. He gave himself for her that he might sanctify and cleanse herwith the washing of water by the word that he might present her to himself aglorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that sheshould be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wivesas their own bodies, for he who loves his wife loves himself for no one everhated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does theChurch for your members of his body of his flesh and of his bones. For thisreason, a man shall leave his father and mother be joined. His wife and thetwo shall become one flesh and then Paul says something really wild here ifhe sins five n thirty two. He says this is a great mystery, but I speakconcerning Christ in the church. Nevertheless, letty to one of you inparticular, so love his own wife had himself and let the wife see that sherespects her husband. So Paul goes through all of this great detail abouthusbands and wives, loving each other, and then he says I know this scene isreally mysterious, but I'm not actually even talking about marriage. I'mtalking about the love between Jesus and the church, and so there's there'sthis sort of almost indistinguishable...

...connection between the love of Christ,as is demonstrated toward the church and the love of a husband, as ought tobe demonstrated toward his wife, and so if we are going to have abiblical world view for what marriage is, or at least what marriage ought tobe. It is that it should be an indistinguishable earthly manifestationof the Heavenly Reality of love between Christ and the Church and the Churchand Christ, and so the purpose of marriage or to define marriage. It should be, aswe saw in Genesis, one should be monogamous life, Long Covenant andHeterosexual and then in the efficiens five we understand. The purpose of thisis because, by having a marriage that is monogamous, lifelong covenent, Aland heterosexual, we actually demonstrate the relationship betweenJesus and the Church to the world. Our marriage is supposed to be a reflectionof Christ, a shadow of Christ, a manifestation of Christ to the world. Ithink that's the purpose, the function of marriage. Honestly, there was a bigissue several years ago where everybody was talking about how we ought to votewhen it comes to gay marriage and if it should be legal or illegal, and if I was in a position to makepolitical decisions, my stance would have been. I think that the governmentshould stay out of marriages altogether. I know the government should grant anyperson a domestic partnership with any other person that they want to have itwith. It can be your buddy, your roommate, you know your best friend,your lover like you know, and that person then has legal right to sign onyour behalf. Should you be incapacitated? They can you know youcan file taxes jointly, there's a lot of different benefits that you can getand call that just like, would you say, a legal park of domestic partnership,okay, yeah with any other person that you want. I think that if you want tobe married, that that that's something that you should be in the eyes of Godfor one purpose only and that is to demonstrate Christ to the earth, hmm-and I feel like it's a Sunday- and here like you, are reaching, I love to payyour tithe. If I got to give you ten percent ofwhat I'm making today, I've already paid, you yeah that's right! Yes, now, when you in candace, have these couples in your church andthey're, either going through premarital, counseling or maybe they'vealready been together for a while and and you know, you've already definedwhat marriage is for them and now you're trying to help equip them withthings that they can take into the battle. That is marriage. You know thatlife long commitment and you guys have them do kind of like a constitution orlike some kind of yeah like hand written okay. So we are you gettinglike feather pins and quills and yeah the the continental cond Congress. Youknow we so yeah. I have a sort of process that I walcome through. Okay. Actually, at first we talked abouteffusions five n. We talked about Genesis, one God's role for men andwomen, God's plan and here's the thing when I say God's role for men and women.What I don't mean is that men should be like big butch. You know extremelymasculine, you know meatheads and that women should be likea dainty, delicate homemakers. I think I think it was a great guess. I couldnever be well there's the beautiful thing about it is that you know there'ssort of there's like the ultra feminine side of the spectrum and there's thealtera masculine side of the spectrum and every person exists somewhere onthat on that line and I think we're sort of obsessing about gender identity. So much that we don'trealize that that actually you know you may have this sort of pan sexual whoever person who is really just wrestling with their own uniqueness andI'm different than my dad and I'm different than my mom and there'ssomething about me. That's totally unique and that's beautiful it's bydesign. God made you unique, but we all want to know what nature we fit in andyou know, and so we're looking at minority groupsbased on race based on gender based on you, know, sexual orientation based ontheir own sort of demeanor, or you know, maybe unique genderexpressions. You know a unique mixture of what we would consider masculine oror feminine, but the truth is that the individual is sort of the ultimateminority that there's there's nobody else. That is the the unique mixture ofattributes that you are right and that's a beautiful thing. Theindividual is I it's not my statement. That's a Jordan Peterson said that I think he,but the individual is the ultimate minority. It's a beautiful idea and ina really true concept, I think if we continue to sort of down the path ofyou know unique expression and individuality, what we discover is that you know every single person has a longlist of reasons that they can be persecuted and insulted. Every singleperson has a you know, struggles that...

...they have to overcome. Every singleperson has benefits and opportunities that are presented to them and andeverybody's experience of the world is different, every individual person and-and so that's a really that's a really beautiful thing. And so we talk whenwe're talking about marriage. That's that's sort of wherewe start is by talking about this stuff and talking about the masculine and thefeminine and where they fit together, how they complement each other andrecognizing that you know you may have you may be a guy. That's you know fivefoot two and a hundred and three pounds, and you may have a wife, that's sixfoot, two and two hundred and eighty pounds and that's a beautiful like it'sfine and it's cool like if you guys love each other, that's great, like olove each other for the glory of God. You guys are going to have an awesomemarriage, you know, and the man, kids and beautiful yeah you and have a greatkid like I don't care, you know if a guy's may be more traditionallyfeminine or girls, maybe more traditionally masculine like it doesn'tmatter, I don't think they deserve persecution or disrespect in any way.But we talk about the the sort of interplay between the masculine and thefeminine and how God could be demonstrated through that, and then we talk about identity andthings and then and then I get into the the Geneva Convention, which we cantalk about if you want, but we sort of end with the the constitution of themarriage. I think the American constitution is one of the mostsignificant and beautiful documents ever written. I think it was Godinspired like. I don't think. I cannot imagine that a group of hard headed stubborn men, like the thememor of the Continental Congress, would ever be able to get together and come to any kind of consensus, letalone a consensus as really historically revolutionary. Is that onethat they would make a declaration like? We believe that all men were createdequal and were endowed with certain inaliable right. You know, among themthe right to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I mean thatconcept alone had never been that's a revolutionary in a couple. Differentways way: Number One as it's the first time in history, that a political document had been released,outlining that people had rights that were given to them by God and that thefunction of government is not to grant rights, but actually to protect therights you've already been given. I think that is that is a revolutionaryconcept and that's the first time in history was ever. It was ever presentedto the world that the role of government wasn't to give you rights.The role of government was to protect the rights that God has given youthat's a revolutionary concept in itself and then and then to go alongwith that to say that all men were created equal, I mean, while theydidn't accomplish it there. While they were writing the constitution, theylaid the groundwork for what became the end of slavery, the end of Segregation,women suffrage. I mean the most substantial advancements in humanequality came as a result of philosophies and ideas that werewritten in the American constitution. It's an amazing document, an amazingaccomplishment for these men to come together. I mean flawed, broken men,some of them slave owners. I mean like Matho, you know bad guys, based on who you ask who are able toaccomplish something enduring and significant. That has really changedthe world in a lot of positive weights. We haven't arrived, of course, but butwe're moving in a good direction. The world was a lot more equitable than itwas two hundred and fifty years ago when they, when they wrote thatdocument so things an amazing accomplishment, something that is worthacknowledging and in affirming now. At the same time, I think one ofthe more significant parts of it is that it's just it's just an objectivedocument that we can come back to and and refer refer to over and over andover again and and we do as a country, we go back tothe the constitution, and you know we went back to the constitution to drawsome conclusions about what we should do about segregation and Martin LutherKing Juniors Day, and we went back to the constitution when, in Lincoln's Day,when we abolish slavery, we did so based on the ideas in the constitution,and so we certainly grow in our ability to apply this objective truth. Thisdocument that is really more maybe a philosophical document than a politicalone and and so we've applied it in a lot of different ways through the years,but having something objective that you can go to. So it's not just one partyagainst another or it's not just one group against another. We can actuallycome back and say well, this is the goal this is. This is what we allagreed to when we became Americans, and this is what we're all striving tobecome. I think that's a beautiful...

...concept, and so one of the things I dowhen I'm counseling couples who are going to get married is, I walk themthrough a process of discovering and uncovering who they are as individualswho they've been called to be and I'll have them write that out? You know Ihave them intentionally, not discuss it with each other for the the girl tocome and say hey. This is who God is called me to be. This is what God hascalled me to do and for her fiance to come and write down. You know forhimself. This is what God is called me to do and who, God has made me to be,and then I'll say this is beautiful, but I have them trade that and say youknow his call becomes her responsibility and her call becomes hisresponsibility and when we are in Covenant Together, my main priorityneeds to be that you become who God has called you to be, and then I'll havethem together. Spend a week praying and writing essentially a constitution fortheir marriage. That this is. This is our goal. This is our vision for whatmarriage ought to be we're committing ourselves to. You know we're going toprioritize daily prayer, we're going to raise our kids in the presence of theLord we're going to be a family that worships and doesn't just talk about it,we're going to be actively involved in our church. You know, there's a lot ofdifferent couples that value and prioritize a lot of different things,but they you know they go through and they make some commitments and somedeclarations that they both can agree on about what the culture of theirmarriage is going to be like and most of the couples that go through, thatthey'll print it off and like frame it and hang it in their house somewhere,so that you know instead of saying hey, you hurt my feelings and now I'm mad atyou, you C N T E n. They can just sort of point at the constitution. Like yousaid it's not about what I want it's about. What you want when we wereengaged and we with through premarital counseling? We had this idea about whatour marriage should be like, and you know your pride or your disrespect oryour anger or your lust. It's undermining the goals that we set and Idon't want to hold you account of LE O my standards. I want to hold youaccountable to your standards, and these are what you said. Your standardswere, and so I think, having that objective document, that's outside ofyou know my heart and my wife's aren't having an objective document to comeback to is a really beautiful and useful and beneficial thing and so yeah.I have them sort of right, a constitution for their marriage so thatthey can revisit it whenever, whoever they need and it's never used as like you're in the middle of an argument andthen all of a sudden, you grab your spouses wrist and like Yank himdownstairs, and you point you're like see. I'm right you're wrong, like I'msure it's not used in that way, because then I asy that constitutions gone everyeah, that's pouse! Rips that hang up burns is like you will never do that tome. Well, I don't know I mean I want to feel like. If you know, if my wife didthat to me I'd be able to say you're right, HMM, you're right, like I said that Iwouldn't speak to you like this and then, and I just did and it's there inblack and white on the wall like I violated my own commitment to you andto the Lord, and I'm really sorry about that. You know I want to think thatthat would be at least for some for some people a great way to be accountable to what wesay. We want yeah, okay, so I feel like to stay in history class. I do want togo back to what you talked about with the Jiva Jiva genda convention. Youcould tell how well I did in history. I was, I was a math major, but I want to stay in this history zoneand go with what you were talking about with the Geneva Convention and forthose that are listening that are like me. The donare stand at first kind oftalk about what that is, and then talk about how that connects to a healthymarriage. So the Geneva Convention is sort of a treaty convention signedby all the major world leaders right after World War. Two that essentiallyhighlights rules for war, so part of the Geneva Convention is that it'sagainst the convention, the Convention or the agreement to use chemical orbiological weapons. It's against the convention to attackintentionally attacks, Villians, it's against the convention to torture,prisoners of war, and so it's essentially a a commitmentby all the civilized nations in the world to say that, even when we're atall out war with each other, there are still things that are over the line,still things that are too far that will undermine the basic principles of humandignity that govern society, civilization as a whole and therefore,even in all that war, we won't violate these things and- and I think I think, there's probablysome wisdom in that when it comes to any type of conflict that you haveboundaries, you won't cross, even when you're, in an Argumentt with yourspouse and that's kind of how we pull...

...the idea of the Geneva Convention intopremarital. Counseling is to say, you know conflict when you live withsomeone day in and day out for the rest of your life. It's unavoidable, noconflict doesn't have to be a huge knockdown, drag out fight the policedon't have to get called, it doesn't have to be a screaming match. You knowyou may live your entire life without getting in a full on. You know: High Temper, high pressure, intenseaggressive fight with your spouse, which would be great. I hope thathappens for every couple, but but even for maybe more even keeled slow, tempered individuals. You knowthere will be some sort of conflict, it may just be like. I don't really wantto eat at that restaurant or you know that friend of yours, that you think isawesome. I think they're obnoxious and don't really like spend a time withthem or you know, hey. You want to put the medicine in the bathroom cabinetand I want to put it in the kitchen cabinet and where are we going to putit so there's you know, there's conflict, it's just different is ofopinion or priority, and how do we resolve those things and while seekinga resolution we may we may have you know a stalemate and in those momentsthere have to be, I think, rules of engagement to make sure that we don'tundermine. You know the human dignity of our partner and that we can can sortof wake up and stand to look at them the next morning. So I sort of walk people through a number ofbits of practical advice, things that you can't ever do even when you'refighting just to make sure that you're that youdon't get in an argument over like a way to put the medicine cabinet thatthat ends in some maybe irreparable damage to your ability to trust andcooperate with your partner, okay, yeah and and with you and candace,I'm guessing you guys are using the things that you're telling people touse yeah we're trying to it's there much easierto say than they are to do. I in that life right, that's that is Longi wantto rewind on you and Candas, because I want everyone to know the story of howyou guys met. You told us the other night and I was just like what in theworld so are you serious and and and you kept dealing with it, so I was likeokay. I guess this- I'm not being pumped right now. So so you know because we could talk about.You know everybody like the way that they men, there's all these magicalways or you know exciting stories or like crazycoincidences, but you guys have a story. Unlike any that I've heard it's a goodone. It's maybe more. Like Cinderella Yeah, we LO. I scoured the country side, try andchoose on strangers which, if Cinderella, she was a Perpeti how tofall off in the first place. Hey wow come on now. Wake up sheep man, it's all the conspiracy. That's is he's alive. That's right! Disney isfake news. I don't know why. I don't know why we just votin a trump I amwell. So we met in December of two thousand andseven December fifteen. Two Thousand and seven my band had just been playinga show in macallan this little city. Maybe fortyfive minutes outside of Birmingham m sweet home, yeah real tight, and we weso we played the shows. Maybe four hundred and twenty five people therenow early that morning we driven overnight and we slept inside the venuefor a few hours in the morning or like early two three in the morning, and Iwoke up earlier than the rest of the guys and Iwent outside and was just walking, pray and spend in time with the Lord. WhileI was out there, I found a ring on the ground kind of a nice ring. I think itwas just a piece of costume jewelry like not like somebody lost theirengagement ring, but it was. It was kind of Nice and I felt bad justthrowing it back on the ground. You know so I dropped it in my pocket anddidn't think much about it. We later than we loaded all of our gear in wewent out to lunch. We came back and sound checked. We went out to dinner,you know four hundred and twenty five people show up to the show. It's agreat night. We play our show. The the other bands are playing at the very endof the night right before we started tearing stuff down to loaded awayloaded back up in the trailer. I was standing back behind our merch tableand I was talking to our our merch guy and while we were talking, I just sortof stuck my hand in my pocket, and I felt that ring again and I thought Oh,I got to figure out something to do with it, so I pull it out of my pocketand as I do so, these these two girls walk up to the table and I just held myhand out with the ring to one of them and said Hey. This is for you and shetook it and stuck it on her ring finger and she said: Oh crazy. It fitsperfectly. She said I guess we're supposed to get married and we bothlaughed and laughed, and we've been married now for twelve and a half years. So now we go so it fifty shot there. Itcould have been her friend Casey, I think, was her name y yeah, which is, Ithink I...

...got the better deal. Yeah Yeah, I thinkI chose right, I would say so, yeah wow, so in that moment you're handingthis ring over to her and is she kind of like pushing your shoulders down toget on one knee like. Let's make this a fan, I o t like no, so she was not. Imean you got to understand. I probably hadn't taken a shower in two weeks. Ihad dreadlocks at this time. I owned one pair of pants and probably twoshirts like it was. Nobody would want to marry that pile of filth that I wasI was a touring musician and but we just got to talk in and I asked youknow who did you come to the show to see I figured I was going to give somegirl a ring and she was gonna. Think, oh, that's so funny and she'd buy ashirt and she'd be a fan and we'd have like you know it just was a randomthing. It didn't occur to me that it could be romantic. I wasn't flirtingwith her it. Just she literally was the first person to walk up to me, and so I I just we got to Talkin and I asked youknow who did you come to see at the show and she said well actually beforeI gave my life to Christ, I used to come to these shows and like get drunkand heckle Christian bands and then so now I love Jesus. He has she used toshe used to be the one screaming you know shut up. This is in church. Shewasn't the girl in the front row with the middle thing, not at that not atthat show. No, not for us. She'd, never heckled us before, but she she came tothe show thinking. I just want to share the gospel with girls that are maybe inthe position that I used to be in. So we got to talking about that and Ithought that's awesome and you know I found out. She was about my age alittle a couple months, older and so we got to chatting and and she she saidher dad had a basement. We could sleep in and so she said. Well, here's! Mynumber, let me know if you guys ever need a place to stay in Birmingham. Shejust thanked us for sharing the Gospel and got a shirt to support US and helpus get gas money to the next show, and so then that night, you know I end upin that crazy, confederate, flag slave house and to wishing you went tocanda exactly wishing so I'm texting or like you will not believe this placethat we're staying just heads up we're definitely staying at your place nexttime- and you know- maybe it was a a couple weekslater- that I was in prayer and the Lord sort of interrupted. What Iwas praying about and said that girl can dic is going to be your wife someday, so don't screw it up, and you know the rest. The rest is history.What so I was texting, I'm trying to think two thousand and nine so yeahyeah or two thousand and seven you said yeah we were is probably te: Nine O o on, ighten, N, nine ty, nine in each other, so you're, ten, nine and heryeah, which sounds inappropriate but you're messaging. Her, and did you justtell her like Hey God, just told me that you want be my wife. So so I tryto con the story out, because I would advise young man if God told you thatyou should marry this girl, you should probably just keep that between you andGod, but I didn't have any accountability in my lie. You get toomuch Taco bell in your system to because here's the thing most of theyoung men, I know, don't really know what the Voice of God sounds like. Theythink I think she's hot and she loves Jesus. So she must be supposed to be mywife and- and I think we need accountability andleadership in our life to help govern. You know those big sort of lifedecisions and help us navigate those things a wise way. Now by the grace ofGod, things worked out, okay for us, but I know lots of guys that have toldfour or five girls. The Lord said you're supposed to marry me and ithadn't worked yet and so they're just sort of stumbling through manufacturing.These words from the Lord that are making everybody's life a lot moredifficult and confusing, mostly theirs, and so I think, if you're a young guyand you feel, like God, told you that you should marry that cute girl in yourclass and just keep it to yourself. You know yeah and why don't you gointroduce yourself? First, like that's. I think you start with like hey. Youknow. My name is Jeffrey next to me: What's your name, you know: Go meetthis girl, I like as not Jeffrey and just see what happens just say JeffreyAnyway, who don't start it off with a lie: Yeah finds out you're totally, nota jeffries. That's where I now e here, you guys are almost thirteen yearslater, twelve yeah. I thirteen years old yeah and you got three boys yeah.How is it fathering? A three boys tucks, the best yeah yeah. I don't know aboutboys in general, but my three boys are the greatest hilarious kids. I meanthere's never a dull moment, they're, just painfully cool and talented andsmart they're, just like they're just so awesome, yeah they're great, I meanbasically to raise good boys. All you have to do is just attack them fromtime to time. That's it. You know you just grab a sucker punch, yeah J. Well,just you know, keep the punch into a minimum. Probably, but you know justgrab him and throw him on the couch o put them in a headlock. They just loveit. That's all there is to it really. That's also. I got a feed himoccasionally to I guess: Yeah they not matched potatoes, though no, no, not myoldest yeah. He doesn't like them at...

...all yeah. I saw the whole video of himlike spitting them out and then, like literally having a melt down big overmashed potatoes for sure yeah, very unique names for your kids, KaiCarver, and then I guess Kla ils, the normal name there, but in anysignificance or reason for those names. So Kay's name is Malachi. Okay and mymy wife, actually before we even met, felt, like the Lord told her, that herfirst born child to be a son and she wassupposed to name a Malachi. Now the name Malakin means my messenger, and now we didn't want to call themMalakin, it's a lot of syllables and we didn't want to shorten it to like Mal,that's weird and and we thought, if we spelled it Malachi and then he had towrite ki like Chi, that everybody would call him she, because she was growingup in Alabama, and you know the yeah, so they're not hooked on phonicsthey're, not that's right on Paani yeah and that Hook it on Paranic. So so they're. So we spell the mal a Kaiyeah. So we call him guy for short and his full name is Maliki, WilliamMontgomery, which translates to my messenger defender of the Kingdom ofthe mountain O, pretty legendary. It's my boy he's cool and Caleb his younger brother.His name is Caleb Owen Montgomery. We called him. We actually called himOwen for the first couple years of his life and when he was maybe four H, Iwas telling he and Kay the story of Caleb and Joshua,believing God that he would be faithful to to help them. Take the the PromisedLand, the Lanna Canaan, with the despite the giants that were in theland and and this land that was flowing with milk and honey. So I'm telling himthe story, I'm telling them about Caleb. You know the other. Ten spies didn'tbelieve God and they brought back a bad report, and so the Israelites wanderedfor forty years, but God sustained Joshua and k Liban and when theyfinally did come into the land that Caleb and his family got to inherit anentire mountain, and it happened to be the mountain where the giants live andCaleb said I'll. Take it anyway, I'm that mountain belongs to me, not thosegiants, so I'm telling them this awesome story about this. Awesome ManKa Libe, great hero of our faith, and I said some that's who you're named afterand he said that's who are named after yeah, buddy and- and he said well then can can I go by Caleb from now on, sowe call them Owen. For the first I mean, if you see any videos or pictures oranything from I don't know. Five four five years ago were probably callinghim Owen, but until that night- and we said all right well we're going tochange it to Caleb. So it's Ky and Caleb. His name means courageous, YoungWarrior of the Mountain Caleb O in Montgomery and then carver.We had a couple names that we might name him and I actually had a dreamwhen Canis is pregnant with him, that we were that. I was playing with thisbaby boy and calling him Carver, and then I just sort of knew in myspirit in the dream that it was because of George Washington Garber, who hadsort of been a hero of mine. But I hadn't honestlyhadn't researched a ton. I think I did a couple reports on George Washington,carver in middle school or something but didn't know a lot about him and hewas a scientist and then he worked on peanuts but turns out George Washingtoncover. He was. He was born a slave and when he went to school he didn't have aname. He had the last name of the people who owned his family, the carverfamily, but he needed he needed a first in middle name, and so they asked himin school. What are your name? What's your name and he just didn't have one,and so he just picked a name that he knew George Washington, and so he picksto gorge Washington carvers. His name now, George Washington carver. Somehistorians believe that he actually was not by the car or family. They werereally kind to him. That's why he kept that name, but but by a differentfamily later in life that he was actually castrated. And so I think youcan imagine how brutal and painful- and you know,demoralizing that might have been but Tis, despite the fact that he was borna slave, that he was, I mean, really brutally abused by white people. Hewent to college at the University of Iowa and they wouldn't let him insideof the classroom or the dorm. So he had to sleep in the boiler room with theservants at the University of Iowa and then he had to sit in a chair outsideof the building and listen through the window to get his education. But hefinishes at the top of his class and then eventually comes back and becomesa professor at the University of Iowa and then he gets tired at Tuskegee University in Alabama and hecomes down to Alabama and he's an agricultural scientist. He notices thatthe farmers in Alabama they're not...

...letting their fields rest they're, notdoing crop rotations, there's a lot of things that they could be doing to havea lot more productive farming operations, and so he sets up dislike traveling sort of agriculturalscience circuit and he like rides around and totally revolutionize hisagriculture in the south. He becomes such a trusted name that they invitehim when the government is arguing over whether or not they're going to taximported peanuts, they invite him to come, and so he gives. I think, thesenator this white senator gives him ten minutes to speak on peanuts at theend of his ten minutes. He's wrapping up in the senator says now you keepgoing for as long as you want, and so he just he talks for like an hour, andthe senators are that are a part of this committee on you know. Peanut imports are so stunned at howmuch he knows that he says like the set of the senator, who is the chairman ofthe Committee says? How do you know all this, and he said I learned it from anold book and the Guy said well what what book is this, and he said theBible and the senator says I don't think theBible says anything about pinnuts. How did you learn this and he says you'reright? It doesn't, but it talks a lot about the God who made the peanut andhe said the closer I've gotten to him. The more of his secrets he's beenwilling to share with me, and so he there's a lot of documentation abouthim using his influence to really do two things number one to point: Peoplein the direction of actual intimate communal relationship with God to sharethe Gospel through his agricultural science and in his position ofinfluence in the country in number two to work toward racial reconciliationand racial cooperation, and that, despite being born a slave despitehaving potentially been castrated, at least he was unable to have childrenbecause of what some of his slave owners had done to him. You know, despite some of the horrorsthat he'd experienced at the hand of white people, he was still a proponentof racial reconciliation and Co operation, so I have always been, Ithink, he's amazing and I felt like the Lord. I know this is a long story to why wenamed our son Carver, but he his name's Carver carver Jas Montgomery and heor youngest, but I really felt, likethe Lord, had really sort of tied his destiny and call with George Washingtoncarvers in this pretty special way so yeah we named him Carver Man, I lovethe intentionality to the names and just because I feel like names, they do a lot to a person. You know andjust like hearing you talk about Caleb and how once heknew why he was named Caleb and he was like. Oh No. I want that name yea. Itstop calling me O en, like I want to be this guy over throwing giants. Yes,please let me be that one of your post that you talked aboutwith your boys on instagram. I think it s. It was something that I think a lotof our listeners can kind of connect with when you know they have kids wasthat you talked about the eighteen summers that you get with every childand how you have to optimize and use them. You know to your fullest, and I knowthat your post was about like all the crazy things that you do with your boys.Can you talk a little bit about just kind of that? I don't know recognizingthe fact that you know your time is limited with them and like what? Whatwhat can people be doing to be intentional, and especially with boys,raising them up to be men yeah? Can you talk into that yeah? You know, there'stwo things. I think that come to mind at first number. One is that from thebeginning, candace- and I have been really determined to remind ourselves that we are notraising babies. We are raising men who happen to be babies right now, and Ithink there are a lot of people who are sortof dismissive to the immaturity of their children, because boys will beboys, but the truth is that boys will be men,whether we like it or not, and because we are not training our sons, they are turning into giant sort of man,children. You know, I mean here's what I mean. I grew up without a dad, myfather, he died of cancer. When I was eight years old and years into my marriage, I began torealize that a lot of my views about relationships romance and sexualitywere shaped like every boy, when I was thirteen fourteen fifteen years old,when I was first started, discovering sexuality when I was noticing girls andgirls were noticing me and you know what does that look like, and so whoare the guys? Who are the people that I was looking up to as a model formanhood? When I was a fourteen year old boy, you know who was, he was seventeenyear old boys eighteen year old boys and so what defined sexuality andRomance and relationships for me.

Sort of Inter gender relationships for me was seventeen year old boys eighteen yearold boys because they had beards and they drove cars and they slept withgirls and they had jobs like that was my picture of masculinity and thensuddenly. I was at twenty eight twenty nine year old father of two having to face the facts that a lot ofmy views about sexuality were shaped by eighteen year, old boys by high schoolkids, and I think, there's many men who are the same way. Their views aboutsexuality, get defined by Juniors and seniors in high school or maybe incollege. You know, they're looking at a bigger guys and older guys in collegeand that's sort of their standard for sexual success or health, and so you know they're on intheir s and s and s and s, thinking thinking the way that they thought whenthey were seventeen and eighteen years old. And so we have got to understand: I'mnot training, my kids to be kids, I'm training, my kids to be men and theirkids now they're in that process. But the end goal is that they would be menof honor and virtue and self control that they would use their the uniquefeatures of their own masculinity to serve and to protect the people aroundthem, not to dominate or manipulate them, and- and I think this is one of the issues in our culture- isthat we we sort of, shrug our shoulders and sayboys will be boys and we don't recognize they're, not always going tobe boys. You know, like you said we only have we have eighteen summers with our kidsbefore there who knows who knows where and frankly,maybe not even that many. As you know, they in a lot of ways havedecided which way they want to go at sixteen seventeen years old, and sowe've got to be really intentional and if I'm honest man, I think you hear thestuff and you think you've got to have it figured out as a parent immediatelyand capitalize on it from year. One first, you know the first summer andfrankly, what it takes is not a ton of money. It's not. You know some sort of PhD and paranoid what ittakes to be a successful parent, it's to take the time and energy to care andto just make sure your kids feel that you care, and if that's all you do isto just say I don't have the money to take you to Disney world every everyyear. I don't have the money to fly you around the world and let you get allthese exotic experiences. I can't buy you the newest bike or the coolestshoes, but like I want to hear how your day went, and I want to include you inmy own personal pursuit of the Lord. I want you to see me, pray and worship.You know. I want you to see me admit to my wife when I was wrong. You know I want you to see me, takecare of and serve my wife. I want to you know when my wife comes home withgroceries, I want to be out there waiting to help her carry thosegroceries in I want to you know let her you know see the benefits of mystrength. is a man like I'm going to carry groceries in for her. I want toserve her the to the best of my ability, and I think that that just sets theframework for our kids to just understand, especially boys, tounderstand their their place in the world and why, God has made them uniquein the ways that he's made them that you know their masculinity isn't to todominate other people. It's not to be aggressive and intense. Just for thesake of aggressiveness and intensity. It is to to bring your strength to the table toserve and protect the women and children that God might put around you,and I think I think that just starts with caring. You know you don't have tohave all the answers or all the money in the world that just starts withconsistently waking up every day and caring about the character of yourchildren, caring about what goes on in their life, giving them a safe place toshare their heart and being willing to share your heart with them as well.Mand, that's something that everyone can afford. Everybody can afford that.That's right, but one of the hardest things probably to give you know youhave to do it intentionally. It's not something that just happens, that'sright for sure! Well, it's been amazing having you here today, our timetogether, I feel like I've learned so much. I mean as much as this podcast is for thelistener. It's also for me, and just figuring out, you know going intomarriage. You know we're now looking at a date next October and so we're superexcited, and so it's amazing having people like you come in and bringwisdom and candace being able to meet both of you guys has been phenomenal. Iknow that you guys at your church have a new album coming out yeah. I know that you'reworking on a new book you've also done a book called Scary God. I feel, like you, have so much going onhow amen's conference going on in Las Vegas the Spring Yeah Yeah. So how can people not only follow youand what you're doing but learn about...

...all of this other stuff? We, where dothey get? Well, I think the central place would be the church's website,the ministry's website, the altar dot, Org Altar, yeah, the altered, Doto Workand that you know there. There's information about our national men'sconference were calling together, seventeen thousand men from all aroundthe country to take a stand for biblical manhood again, and I think that's going to be reallysignificant. You know new yeah, new books and albums and all those things,social media links and you know ways to connect. I think our and even topartner are there on the website the altered out of work, and you know at the end of the day, ifsomebody wants to find me, I'm in my office in Johnson City, downtownJohnson City Tennessee, and if they want to come, hang out and run the race,then I'm not hard to find man. I absolutely love it and I appreciate once again coming down andif they're looking for you, specifically it's at Maddie, Montgomeryon like Instagram, yea, instagram and Facebook, I think yeah, okay, awesomewell! Thank you guys. So much for listening and Tung in once again stayyoung stay married, but definitely stay Christian, see you guys next time, allright y'all. We hope you loved that conversation here, Young Mary Christian.We are on a mission to see a Gospel centered home made available for everysingle child in the foster care system. There are four hundred thousand kids inthe fosterer system and there are four hundred Housen churches in America.Yale Church can solve this problem if you want to join us on this missiontext. The word freedom to eight Thrty, three, three, seven, oh one, six one!Oh another thing you can do to help us grow. The reach of this podcast is toleave a rating in apple podcast. It's super simple, just go to the show'spage scroll down and give us a rating for this show debow. What's a goodrating typically just count the fingers on my hand, and then I click that manystars all right. So we're not telling you to give us a five star rating, butfor the love of everything holy. It would help us tone if you wit and giveus a rating. I guess for that guy that has four fingers just had one. Yes, you don't even have to leave a reviewbecause, let's be real, that takes too long. Just go to apple pod. Gas Canbelieve us a rating yes, but seriously, though, if you do nothing else at leasttext the word freedom to eight three, three, three: Seven, Oh one, six one oeight, three, three, three, seven o one: six, one h e, the three three seven out,one: six, one o eight, the th, the seven one, six, one o o.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (8)